The Official Star Trek Movie Forum

The Official Star Trek Movie Forum > Star Trek > General Star Trek Discussions > Films > Movies (I - X) > Data and Beyond
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 11-19-2009, 10:30 AM
horatio's Avatar
horatio horatio is offline
Fleet Admiral
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 9,257
Default The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin View Post
Berman, who we can all ackowledge did a exceptionally good job.... up to a point. But I've never been his biggest fan either and while his successes can indeed be pointed out during his command we can also keep it mind that Star Trek comprehensively ran aground while under his command as well.
Precisely, it is important to view the whole picture. You can neither claim that Shatner sucks because he created "The Final Frontier" nor can you claim that he rocks by denying this movie and just focusing upon his role of Kirk.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Commodore View Post
Same thing applies for both Roddenberry and Abrams and they have as much detractors as admirers. Why should Berman be any different?

I do consider myself a Berman detractor because there was a lot of things that occured while he was in command that I have fault with...
A lot of things happened under his command and somehow I doubt that you don't like "The Best of Both Worlds" or the middle of TNG in general.

I like VOY and ENT, but I am not oblivious to the structural problems of these shows.

In short, one can praise him for TNG and DS9 and throw stones at him for VOY and ENT (or any other combination of shows one likes and doesn't) but one cannot close one's eyes and just pick out the good or the bad (unless one considers all four shows good or bad).

Last edited by horatio : 11-19-2009 at 10:44 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-19-2009, 11:15 AM
Commodore's Avatar
Commodore Commodore is offline
Rear Admiral
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Starbase 24
Posts: 2,511
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by horatio View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commodore
Same thing applies for both Roddenberry and Abrams and they have as much detractors as admirers. Why should Berman be any different?

I do consider myself a Berman detractor because there was a lot of things that occured while he was in command that I have fault with...
A lot of things happened under his command and somehow I doubt that you don't like "The Best of Both Worlds" or the middle of TNG in general.
The best thing about "The Best of Both Worlds" was that Berman didn't write it and much of the middle of TNG also fits in that category.
Quote:
I like VOY and ENT, but I am not oblivious to the structural problems of these shows.

In short, one can praise him for TNG and DS9 and throw stones at him for VOY and ENT (or any other combination of shows one likes and doesn't) but one cannot close one's eyes and just pick out the good or the bad (unless one considers all four shows good or bad).
And indeed all five shows have their good and bad moments. I can criticize every Trek head honcho for their bad moments. The problem is that Berman produced more Trek than anyone, so naturally he gets the lion's share of both praise and criticism.
__________________
Free your mind, and the rest will follow.
--En Vogue
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-19-2009, 11:32 AM
horatio's Avatar
horatio horatio is offline
Fleet Admiral
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 9,257
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commodore View Post
The best thing about "The Best of Both Worlds" was that Berman didn't write it and much of the middle of TNG also fits in that category.
Might have something to do with the fact that he was the boss of that show. If you dislike his writing, and he seemingly did not work on a lot of scripts until ENT, a more precise critique would be that he is a bad writer and a good producer (during TNG and the beginning of DS9).

Quote:
And indeed all five shows have their good and bad moments. I can criticize every Trek head honcho for their bad moments. The problem is that Berman produced more Trek than anyone, so naturally he gets the lion's share of both praise and criticism.
That's all I am asking for, a whole view of his involvement in Trek.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-19-2009, 12:02 PM
Commodore's Avatar
Commodore Commodore is offline
Rear Admiral
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Starbase 24
Posts: 2,511
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by horatio View Post
Might have something to do with the fact that he was the boss of that show.
Might also have something to do with the fact he didn't come up with the idea.
Quote:
If you dislike his writing, and he seemingly did not work on a lot of scripts until ENT, a more precise critique would be that he is a bad writer and a good producer (during TNG and the beginning of DS9).
Unfortunately, one aspect overshadows the other for me.
Quote:
Quote:
And indeed all five shows have their good and bad moments. I can criticize every Trek head honcho for their bad moments. The problem is that Berman produced more Trek than anyone, so naturally he gets the lion's share of both praise and criticism.
That's all I am asking for, a whole view of his involvement in Trek.
Here's another whole view of his involvement in Trek: He should have left Trek a long time ago.

But then I said that at the beginning, didn't I?
__________________
Free your mind, and the rest will follow.
--En Vogue
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-19-2009, 12:18 PM
horatio's Avatar
horatio horatio is offline
Fleet Admiral
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 9,257
Default

Obviously my effort to point out that the boss is either responsible for everything or nothing was pointless.

I don't like the soulless NuTrek with Vulcans who behave like Romulans and all the other crap ... but beyond all that disgust with the script, my mind is still clear enough to perceive that Mr.Abrams is a great moviemaker.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 11-19-2009, 12:31 PM
Commodore's Avatar
Commodore Commodore is offline
Rear Admiral
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Starbase 24
Posts: 2,511
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by horatio View Post
Obviously my effort to point out that the boss is either responsible for everything or nothing was pointless.
Only because it wasn't necessary to tell me that and wasn't really the issue to start with. I leveled a specific criticism aimed at Berman's more questionable creative decisions.
Quote:
I don't like the soulless NuTrek with Vulcans who behave like Romulans and all the other crap ... but beyond all that disgust with the script, my mind is still clear enough to perceive that Mr.Abrams is a great moviemaker.
He's okay, I guess...ain't no Russ Meyer, tho...
__________________
Free your mind, and the rest will follow.
--En Vogue
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 11-19-2009, 01:47 PM
chator's Avatar
chator chator is offline
Commander
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,245
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commodore View Post
Might also have something to do with the fact he didn't come up with the idea.

Unfortunately, one aspect overshadows the other for me.

Here's another whole view of his involvement in Trek: He should have left Trek a long time ago.

But then I said that at the beginning, didn't I?
WRONG! So you would deny us all ENTERPRISE and NEMESIS?
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-19-2009, 04:55 PM
Beetlescott's Avatar
Beetlescott Beetlescott is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 1,645
Default

Thankfully everyone gets an opinion! Personally I love Nemesis just the way it is.
__________________
LET'S MAKE SURE HISTORY NEVER FORGETS THE NAME ENTERPRISE!!!
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-20-2009, 06:12 AM
Commodore's Avatar
Commodore Commodore is offline
Rear Admiral
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Starbase 24
Posts: 2,511
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chator View Post
WRONG! So you would deny us all ENTERPRISE and NEMESIS?
CORRECT!
I'd give you Orion Slave Girls Gone Wild instead...
__________________
Free your mind, and the rest will follow.
--En Vogue
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11-20-2009, 06:15 AM
Zardoz's Avatar
Zardoz Zardoz is offline
Federation Councillor
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Somewhere In The Future
Posts: 31,432
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commodore View Post
CORRECT!
I'd give you Orion Slave Girls Gone Wild instead...
Which is better than Ferengi Girls Gone Wild....
__________________
"High Priestesses Of Zardoz" By Eliza's Starbase Of Avatars Copyright 2009."
"Zardoz Speaks To You, His Choosen Trek Fans."
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:36 AM.


Forum theme courtesy of Mark Lambert
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2009 by Paramount Pictures. STAR TREK and all related
marks and logos are trademarks of CBS Studios Inc. All Rights Reserved.