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Old 11-19-2009, 06:28 AM
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Default Data and Beyond

As part of the new special features in the Next Generation Motion Picture Collection, are a series of interviews with Brent Spiner titled "Data and Beyond". This is a thread to discuss those series of interviews that appear with each film in the Motion Picture collection.

I was re-watching "Nemesis" last night, then watched the Spiner interview included on that disc, he mentioned that originally "Nemesis" as conceived by Screenwriter John Logan was an Alternate Reality story, it was to involve the encounter of Picard and Data with the Alternate Reality versions of themselves. A little like how in the new film Old Spock encounters his Alternate Reality version of himself. The idea was rejected by Berman who reworked the idea into the form we see in the film, where Picard meets himself in the clone, Shinzon and Data meets an earlier version of himself in B-4.
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Old 11-19-2009, 07:37 AM
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Yeah, Berman had stayed on Trek too long. All sorts of stuff have been coming to light recently about how Berman disapproved of this idea or that idea--and went with something that was worse, IMO.

I don't see how highly implausible clones were any better than a time travel story about paths not taken...
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Old 11-19-2009, 08:36 AM
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Thanks for the info, Chator. I don't see the appeal of the nixed idea, it would have been kinda like meeting your evil alter ego from the Mirror Universe, without Picard's self-doubts.

Yes, Berman did stay in Trek too long, yes, he did reject good ideas, yes, many people have complained about Mr.Berman (which isn't always the holy truth, e.g. Wang did sometimes come too late to work and was not allowed to direct by Berman, so he b*tched about his ex-boss afterwards) but to get a unbiased picture one also has to mention the good ideas he did accept.
If you are in charge for so long, you run out of creative energy, simple as that.
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Old 11-19-2009, 09:15 AM
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Thanks Horatio, for those who saw the Berman interview, they know that Berman had a really good instinct about casting. Without him, Stewart might not have been cast as Picard, or Frakes as Riker, or Jolene Blalock as T'Pol, or Mulgrew as Janeway. He wasn't the best Trek writer, but he was a good collaborative writer and conceiver of general directions to go with a series, I don't know if he was running out of creative energy and needed to be let go of. I liked the first two seasons of ENTERPRISE, and upon re-watch I don't think NEMESIS was a bad TNG Trek film, INSURRECTION might have been worse.

Last edited by chator : 11-19-2009 at 09:19 AM.
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Old 11-19-2009, 10:04 AM
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As always, there are people with different opinions about every creator Trek has had--from Roddenberry to Abrams. I'm not quite as forgiving about Berman. I think he was initially a good beancounter that kept Roddenberry in check and made sure things got done on time and on budget, but later as a creator and a writer, I believe he left much to be desired, IMO.
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Old 11-19-2009, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chator View Post
Thanks Horatio, for those who saw the Berman interview, they know that Berman had a really good instinct about casting. Without him, Stewart might not have been cast as Picard, or Frakes as Riker, or Jolene Blalock as T'Pol, or Mulgrew as Janeway. He wasn't the best Trek writer, but he was a good collaborative writer and conceiver of general directions to go with a series, I don't know if he was running out of creative energy and needed to be let go of. I liked the first two seasons of ENTERPRISE, and upon re-watch I don't think NEMESIS was a bad TNG Trek film, INSURRECTION might have been worse.
The 3h interview is indeed a lovely piece (but the Berman bashers will most likely just b*tch that he mixes up character names, as if anyone would have such a perfect memory). During the time he was in charge, four series and four movies have been produced, that's the majority of Trek, and he has always been faithful to the basis premise of Trek. Can't say the same about the new folks at the helm.

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As always, there are people with different opinions about every creator Trek has had--from Roddenberry to Abrams. I'm not quite as forgiving about Berman. I think he was initially a good beancounter that kept Roddenberry in check and made sure things got done on time and on budget, but later as a creator and a writer, I believe he left much to be desired, IMO.
Either he is responsible for "Best of Both Worlds" as well as "These Are the Voyages" or neither, for the good things as well as the bad things that occured while he was in command.

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Old 11-19-2009, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commodore View Post
As always, there are people with different opinions about every creator Trek has had--from Roddenberry to Abrams. I'm not quite as forgiving about Berman. I think he was initially a good beancounter that kept Roddenberry in check and made sure things got done on time and on budget, but later as a creator and a writer, I believe he left much to be desired, IMO.
I would second that opinion.

On the subject of the original Nemesis proposals they don't sound radically better than the finished product but neither radically worse either.

Someone, somewhere refashioned Nemesis into a TWOK redux, so if it wasn't Logan's intention to do that then that perhaps leaves us with.......

Berman, who we can all ackowledge did a exceptionally good job.... up to a point. But I've never been his biggest fan either and while his successes can indeed be pointed out during his command we can also keep it mind that Star Trek comprehensively ran aground while under his command as well.
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Last edited by kevin : 11-19-2009 at 10:12 AM.
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Old 11-19-2009, 10:18 AM
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I would second that opinion.
Someone, somewhere refashioned Nemesis into a TWOK redux, so if it wasn't Logan's intention to do that then that perhaps leaves us with.......
I don't see the similarity with TWOK, also i would say that at least if there is a similarity, it was very superficial, NEMESIS was reworked enough to be unrecognizable from TWOK. The same cann't be said for STAR TREK (2009). There are some obvious rip-offs like the Centarian slug scene, a lightning storm in space, etc.

Upon re-watch of NEMESIS, i do realize it was time to move on. The studio felt it, the TNG cast was visibly aged, and there were hints in the film itself that it would be the last TNG Trek film; Riker leaving for the TITAN, Data's death, etc.
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Old 11-19-2009, 10:21 AM
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IMO, Nemesis is far more than superficially similar. The entire basic structure is a direct translation with several key aspects of the story progression exactly the same.

Clearly Star Trek is inspires by it as well, although it's about Spock rather than Kirk this time around but Nemesis is quite blatant.
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Old 11-19-2009, 10:23 AM
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Either he is responsible for "Best of Both Worlds" as well as "These Are the Voyages" or neither, for the good things as well as the bad things that occured while he was in command.
Same thing applies for both Roddenberry and Abrams and they have as much detractors as admirers. Why should Berman be any different?

I do consider myself a Berman detractor because there was a lot of things that occured while he was in command that I have fault with...
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