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  #1011  
Old 12-04-2009, 01:37 PM
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It may suck to some people but can't we not be pleased at the cast and crew for putting their time and effort into making this film.
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  #1012  
Old 12-04-2009, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin View Post
That was the Klingon doctor I referred to
I found it always interesting when we saw Romulan or Klingon civilians, not at least because it shattered the not-so-nice Starfleet perspective upon the Federation's enemies which is present most of the time, a nice dosage of anti-propaganda.
For example the few Romulan civilians we have seen were pretty ordinary people and very unlike the typical arrogant and aggressive Romulan officer. Unification, Eye of the Needle and to some extent United/Aenar (did not feature a civilian but a slightly "humanistic" military scientist) come to mind.
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  #1013  
Old 12-04-2009, 02:40 PM
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Yep, the boy interested in Vulcan literature and history for instance.
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  #1014  
Old 12-04-2009, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by MrQ1701 View Post
Trek did a good job getting away from the idea an entire species were the same though. You had characters that were different than the prevailing characteristics of their species. You had Rom, for instance. There were also lines every now and then that poked fun of the way an entire species was treated as being the same. In ENT I remember a line that made fun of the belief all Klingon's were warriors. I can't remember if it was the episode where Archer was on trial or if it was the "no ridge explanation" episode. "You didn't think all Klingons were warriors, did you?" Or something like that.
See, I don't think Trek did a very good job of painting its alien cultures as anything other than archetypal. With the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians and Feringi, what you see is pretty much all you get. Out of 700 hours of television, you've cited here just a couple examples that strike me as being too little, too late (this is not intended as a challenge; you've merely brought up something that's always bothered me about Trek and I am forced to disagree).

Species could 'evolve' over time with new writers coming into the franchise and offering fresh interpretations... but this process usually happened in spurts, and once the new template was established that was that.

Ron Moore is perhaps the writer best credited with helping the Klingons evolve from the Russian stand-ins of TOS to the more Samurai-like culture seen in the TNG-verse. But after Season 4 of TNG, the entire Klingon culture was pretty much left on auto-pilot. DS9 practically became 'The Klingon Show' after they brought Worf over, and still the writers seemed happy with stretching the existing template rather than adding to it.

In 'Children of Time', Worf's descendants even bragged that they held true to the spirit of Kayless rather than doing anything meaningful like sewing or planting crops! Did we need any more proof that there was apparently no place in the monochrome Klingon society for librarians or farmers? (I might add that Worf himself changed on DS9. No longer content to reconcile his human upbringing and Starfleet values with his Klingon 'honor', his role was now reduced to clashing with the other officers and voicing the least popular opinion: "Kill him now!! We have not the medical resources and his condition is beyond rescue!!" -not an exact quote)

And so, to answer that one Klingon's question... yes, I honestly did believe all Klingons were warriors, and had criticized ST's writing for many years because of it. Had that line been spoken on DS9, ten years earlier, it might've been funny. On ENT, it merely smells of one writer realizing a major flaw in ST's portrayal of an alien culture, and attempting to patch it up too long after the fact.

Anyway, I'm sorry to hijack your discussion like that, but thanks for bringing it up.
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  #1015  
Old 12-04-2009, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by MrQ1701 View Post
I knew the tone and story telling style would be more inline with TOS. I expected that. What I did not expect was for them to ONLY use TOS in order to draw from when rebooting the Trek universe. During the last we have 4 other series and 10 movies that have done a pretty good job filling in the details. While there were inconsistencies, they did a good job of explaining how things worked and what the difference between a replicator and a phaser were. Those things did NOT need to be completely thrown out and replaced. I expected them to be updated and different, but NOT completely different. While I understand this was all about TOS, the series only apparently, it was a slap in the face and disrespectful to ignore everything that came after.
You've got it in a nutshell - it was about TOS only.

Which did it's thing in a quite different stylistic way to the shows of the 1980s and beyond. IMO it would have been far more disrespectful to try and take it's quirks and morph them into some kind of TNG-esque copy.

They would have been as well rebooting TNG in that case.
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Last edited by kevin : 12-05-2009 at 01:59 AM. Reason: Slept on it overnight.....
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  #1016  
Old 12-05-2009, 02:03 AM
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Originally Posted by samwiseb View Post
See, I don't think Trek did a very good job of painting its alien cultures as anything other than archetypal. With the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians and Feringi, what you see is pretty much all you get. Out of 700 hours of television, you've cited here just a couple examples that strike me as being too little, too late (this is not intended as a challenge; you've merely brought up something that's always bothered me about Trek and I am forced to disagree).

Species could 'evolve' over time with new writers coming into the franchise and offering fresh interpretations... but this process usually happened in spurts, and once the new template was established that was that.

Ron Moore is perhaps the writer best credited with helping the Klingons evolve from the Russian stand-ins of TOS to the more Samurai-like culture seen in the TNG-verse. But after Season 4 of TNG, the entire Klingon culture was pretty much left on auto-pilot. DS9 practically became 'The Klingon Show' after they brought Worf over, and still the writers seemed happy with stretching the existing template rather than adding to it.

In 'Children of Time', Worf's descendants even bragged that they held true to the spirit of Kayless rather than doing anything meaningful like sewing or planting crops! Did we need any more proof that there was apparently no place in the monochrome Klingon society for librarians or farmers? (I might add that Worf himself changed on DS9. No longer content to reconcile his human upbringing and Starfleet values with his Klingon 'honor', his role was now reduced to clashing with the other officers and voicing the least popular opinion: "Kill him now!! We have not the medical resources and his condition is beyond rescue!!" -not an exact quote)

And so, to answer that one Klingon's question... yes, I honestly did believe all Klingons were warriors, and had criticized ST's writing for many years because of it. Had that line been spoken on DS9, ten years earlier, it might've been funny. On ENT, it merely smells of one writer realizing a major flaw in ST's portrayal of an alien culture, and attempting to patch it up too long after the fact.

Anyway, I'm sorry to hijack your discussion like that, but thanks for bringing it up.
Actually, that has often bothered me for a long time as well and I've been trying to find a way to bring it in but you've written it far better than I would have done.

So, just to say, I feel very similar about previous Trek treatment of alien races over the years.

The exceptions to the rules were mostly too little, too late, too infrequently done to paint a fully dimensional picture of each major race as being anything other than of a generally homogenised and recognisable single directive.
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  #1017  
Old 12-05-2009, 05:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin View Post
You've got it in a nutshell - it was about TOS only.

Which did it's thing in a quite different stylistic way to the shows of the 1980s and beyond. IMO it would have been far more disrespectful to try and take it's quirks and morph them into some kind of TNG-esque copy.

They would have been as well rebooting TNG in that case.
Speaking of that, I wonder if they'll head to the Next Generation at some point in the alternate reality...

I wouldn't mind seeing it, but I doubt it will occur anytime soon.
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  #1018  
Old 12-05-2009, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
They get into what in the next movie, a meaningful and substantial story? Did they not also claim that they have not hold anything in reserve, that they have put all the got into this one movie?
Shall I say inconsistency, shall I say don't believe a word people say for marketing reasons?
Aren't we marketers all?
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  #1020  
Old 12-05-2009, 06:06 AM
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Dominus of Megadeus Dominus of Megadeus is offline
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LOL!!! Love ya, horatio! We may not see eye to eye on everything...but ain't that what's great about life! I was a bit grandiose in my first reply, but it is true. We market ourselves, we market our reps, our likes and dislikes. We may not overly evangelize 24/7, in the little things we say in do, we give a little piece of ourselves to each other every day.


....Ugh! That was so Saturday-morning-TV show-sickeningly-sweet, I think I need insulin! :0)

Last edited by Dominus of Megadeus : 12-05-2009 at 06:09 AM.
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