[samwiseb]

Originally Posted by kevin

I KNOW THEY ARE BUT OTHER'S HAVEN'T SEEN IT!!!!!

When Alfred talks to Bruce about how when Bruce originally went missing, every year he would take a holiday and go to Florence, and sit at a restaurant and hope that he would see Bruce there, but they would only nod at each other and nothing more, and Alfred would know that Bruce was OK, was living but had found a better life than if he returned to Gotham

How did you find it in isolation on second viewing?

Right okay

I'm terrible with names, especially places. All I remembered both times was 'restaurant'. First time I wondered if Alfred was maybe just imagining that he saw him there. Second time, I bloody forgot to more closely scrutinize the narrative/visual continuity of shots when Batman was presumed to be flying the bomb away, or look for gaps to possibly explain where/when he might have ditched the plane for the autopilot.

[kevin]

Originally Posted by samwiseb

Right okay

I'm terrible with names, especially places. All I remembered both times was 'restaurant'. First time I wondered if Alfred was maybe just imagining that he saw him there. Second time, I bloody forgot to more closely scrutinize the narrative/visual continuity of shots when Batman was presumed to be flying the bomb away, or look for gaps to possibly explain where/when he might have ditched the plane for the autopilot.

YEP

I think you could read it as 'it's his imagination' if inclined to, but I don't think that's how Nolan intended it with the scene also at the end that confirmed Bruce was the one who had fixed the autopilot problem months earlier. To me it felt that it was supporting the idea that Bruce had used the events as a cover to allow him to escape Gotham because he was never going to be happy there. As Bruce nor as Batman. I don't think there was any specific clue about him ditching though. I could be remembering it wrongly.

[samwiseb]

Originally Posted by kevin

YEP

I think you could read it as 'it's his imagination' if inclined to, but I don't think that's how Nolan intended it with the scene also at the end that confirmed Bruce was the one who had fixed the autopilot problem months earlier. To me it felt that it was supporting the idea that Bruce had used the events as a cover to allow him to escape Gotham because he was never going to be happy there. As Bruce nor as Batman. I don't think there was any specific clue about him ditching though. I could be remembering it wrongly.

Upon second viewing I agree

But yeah, I had to see it a second time to feel truly reassured he was still alive and had scored with Catwoman. But that leads to the next obvious question: 'should' he have died? Did Nolan lack 'balls' to give his series the kind of definite ending some of us might have speculated he would based on things he had said? (I know at least a couple fan-oriented reviews have complained as much)

[Roysten]

Am thinking a separate thread for this discussion could be a good idea, or everyone else who hasn't seen the film will just be scrolling down pages worth of spoiler tags, sorry for starting that!

[kevin]

Originally Posted by samwiseb

Upon second viewing I agree

But yeah, I had to see it a second time to feel truly reassured he was still alive and had scored with Catwoman. But that leads to the next obvious question: 'should' he have died? Did Nolan lack 'balls' to give his series the kind of definite ending some of us might have speculated he would based on things he had said? (I know at least a couple fan-oriented reviews have complained as much)

Well, indeed..................

..........there's a question.

Basically, Nolan gives in in part to big modern mainstream cinema convention (to never make anything too final) and also I think he probably genuinely recognised how dark and bleak his films have been by the time TDKR concludes and may have wanted to leave audiences with a little bit of hope.

He doesn't have the balls to be THAT unconventional and really kill him definitively but he does it in a way that probably let's him echo Dent's words that 'it's always darkest before the dawn' and apply them to Bruce. He also allows in the film through dialogue that since Batman is a symbol then it can be anyone inside the suit as long as the people believe in that symbol. It doesn't have to be Bruce.

[kevin]

Originally Posted by Roysten

Am thinking a separate thread for this discussion could be a good idea, or everyone else who hasn't seen the film will just be scrolling down pages worth of spoiler tags, sorry for starting that!

Perhaps a good idea. Start away!

[samwiseb]

We can't keep hijacking the Spider-Man thread?

[kevin]

There would be a lot of spoiler tags. Threads have been started for less.