[jerhanner]

Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain

I find your statement above interesting considering you just wrote this a few pages back:



The best "intelligence" actually doesn't come from torture at all but from proper interrogation techniques which take time. It is a form of mind game where you as the interrogator get the subject to trust you and confide in you so they will give you the information that you are looking for. The information you get that way is a lot more valuable and not just whatever it is you want to hear from the subject because it has been proven that is what most people being tortured will do to make the torture stop, give you what you want to hear.

I guess I was too subtle in my "I'm a mom" thing - I was trying to say that if you threaten my kid, all bets are off and I'll be just as emotional as the next person, even if I intellectually know it's not the best choice.

[Elizadolots]

Before this thread was resurrected, the “last post” was before I joined the board, so I guess I won’t apologize for missing it. I tried to read through it, but sort of went into an information coma and stopped after 13 pages….I then went to the end and worked back to the “return”…

First, I have to say that Paul argued very well and if you’ve watched LOST, you know that J.J. Abrams is very capable of portraying torture, even torture of an innocent, in a very “for the greater good” light.

I’d offer that Star Trek has shown us good people torturing for the greater good. Spock mind raped Valaris.

So, I think it’s a valid concern.

Enterprise Captain wrote:

I know paulpaz only posted in this thread and hasn't posted since this thread died but if he is reading this I'm wondering if he saw this movie before posting this thread and if so why wouldn't he be petitioning the US Military for the dishonorable discharge of Capt. Carolyn Wood or the producers of 24 instead of petitioning Abrams.

Why do you assume it’s a one or the other deal? Couldn’t he do both? My bet is, he has.

FanWriter is, of course, correct that at this time, it’s a done deal. However, he misses the point that ripping into one’s mind is a form of torture….When the Klingon’s did it, it was recognized as such….but when a Vulcan does??? That’s just fine and dandy, because, you know…Vulcans are good! (nods to Enterprise Captain)

[Zardoz]

Originally Posted by Elizadolots

Before this thread was resurrected, the “last post” was before I joined the board, so I guess I won’t apologize for missing it. I tried to read through it, but sort of went into an information coma and stopped after 13 pages….I then went to the end and worked back to the “return”…

First, I have to say that Paul argued very well and if you’ve watched LOST, you know that J.J. Abrams is very capable of portraying torture, even torture of an innocent, in a very “for the greater good” light.

I’d offer that Star Trek has shown us good people torturing for the greater good. Spock mind raped Valaris.

So, I think it’s a valid concern.

So when does it become "OK?"

Enterprise Captain wrote:

Why do you assume it’s a one or the other deal? Couldn’t he do both? My bet is, he has.

FanWriter is, of course, correct that at this time, it’s a done deal. However, he misses the point that ripping into one’s mind is a form of torture….When the Klingon’s did it, it was recognized as such….but when a Vulcan does??? That’s just fine and dandy, because, you know…Vulcans are good! (nods to Enterprise Captain)

So when does it become "OK?"

[Enterprise Captain]

Originally Posted by jerhanner

I might be a space-hippie, but I'm with Qeslah - if it's a choice between torturing an enemy combatant or my kid being blown up, well, pass the truth serum and bamboo.

Originally Posted by jerhanner

I guess I was too subtle in my "I'm a mom" thing - I was trying to say that if you threaten my kid, all bets are off and I'll be just as emotional as the next person, even if I intellectually know it's not the best choice.

I'm not a parent however I think I understand your comment regarding someone threatening your child but what we are talking about here is torturing "possible" terrorists after a small group off real terrorists killed 3000 innocent people. The quote in the documentary that stuck out the must for me was a gentleman quoting a US MP Officer that was releasing him from a prison camp that he had been falsely imprisoned and tortured in. The guard said to him something like "I guess if you weren’t a terrorist before after this you have a reason to be one.” Violence breads violence.

Originally Posted by Elizadolots

Why do you assume it’s a one or the other deal? Couldn’t he do both? My bet is, he has.

I hope he is. The reason I posted in this thread is because while I was watching "Taxi to the Dark Side" I could hear paulpaz's quotes in my head. Much of what he wrote in this thread sounds regurgitated right from the documentary. I figured I try to see if he is still out there because I'm really curious to know if he saw the documentary before posting this. As for the petition, well I haven't seen "Lost" so I don't know how torture is portrayed in it but up until FanWriter45 mentioned Vulcan mind melds I always thought Star Trek did a job of portray torture as wrong, so I felt the petition was a little silly and like jerhanner said an "abuse of the power of the soapbox" I guess all we can do now is wait and see but I'm pretty confident that if STXI does show torture it will be in a negative light.

[Elizadolots]

My guess is there won't even be torture in the new movie, but if there is, it will be committed by an acknowledged bad character. It takes time to develop a positive character enough that the audience won't instantly hate him/her for torturing someone. Look at how many decades it took before Spock engaged in mind rape. Yet, we knew it was something Vulcans could do because in the Mirror Universe, that Spock mind raped McCoy.

Given that the movie is set before TOS, I can't think Abrams will believe we are comfortable enough with any of the characters to let them engage in torture.

[Zardoz]

Originally Posted by Elizadolots

My guess is there won't even be torture in the new movie, but if there is, it will be committed by an acknowledged bad character. It takes time to develop a positive character enough that the audience won't instantly hate him/her for torturing someone. Look at how many decades it took before Spock engaged in mind rape. Yet, we knew it was something Vulcans could do because in the Mirror Universe, that Spock mind raped McCoy.

Given that the movie is set before TOS, I can't think Abrams will believe we are comfortable enough with any of the characters to let them engage in torture.

So Tribbles will torture all those who made fun of them?

(Just trying to lighten things a tad.)