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  #21  
Old 04-02-2008, 04:25 PM
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Well, let's look at that again.

First. Kirk, though not in command of the vessel, is the highest ranking person on board the ship.
Second. Harriman, having likely overseen part of the construction of the ship, probably would have known the ship systems better (I thought it was a bit preposterous that Kirk would know where and how to do what needed to be done on ship he had likely never even stepped foot on until that day).
Third. Kirk wasn't a crewmember, he was essentially an honored guest, a digniatary there for a ceremony.

Harriman should have gone. At worst, Scotty should have gone. Kirk having been a starship commander for more than 30 years at that point, probably wouldn't have known enough to do what needed to be done.
I agree.
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  #22  
Old 04-02-2008, 05:30 PM
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If I were Harriman...


...I'd claim temporal vortices are as unpredictable as Kansas twisters, blame it all on Ferris, and speedily hop on a bus.
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  #23  
Old 04-02-2008, 07:30 PM
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Yes, in optimal conditions, yes. They were dumb enough to leave with less than a skeleton crew, without major systems working, even on this "milk run."


The Enterprise-B's maiden voyage was a disaster, and I blame Starfleet far more than I would Harriman. The ship simply wasn't ready and it was unfortunate that an emergency situation cropped up right then and there. Harriman knew that--and that was the cause of his apparent indecision, IMO--but like any Captain of the Enterprise, he responded when there was lives on the line. Harriman's discomfort was intensified by the presence of Kirk and so many press watching his every move and recording it for posterity. The one thing Harriman might have done was get all non-essential personnel off his bridge, including Kirk.

It's not canon, of course, but the novels have generally said that after this maiden voyage, Harriman grew extensively from this experience and eventually became one of Starfleet's greatest captains during the timeframe of the late 23rd-Century/early 24th-Century. They even went on to say that Harriman was involved in the Tomed Incident that led to the Romulans avoiding further contact with the Federation for over 50 years...

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Watch those scenes again. I would assume Starfleet basic layouts of key systems on ships don't get moved radically. Deflector control, is near the deflector, not near the shuttle bay, for example.

But, as I pointed out before, there was a handy dandy MAP in the Turbolift. Kirk could also ask the computer for extact location after stating his destination. That computer is a blabbermouth...lol.
Very good points.

I also think that starship captains have to be engineers of some sorts too. They have to know generally how their ship works so, while they may not be advanced specialists like engineers are, they do know how to swap out basic control circuits of various systems in an emergency. Picard, Sisko, Janeway, and even Archer were all seen occasionally removing an access panel to some system and doing a little emergency mechanical surgery every once in a while...
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  #24  
Old 04-03-2008, 02:50 AM
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The Enterprise-B's maiden voyage was a disaster, and I blame Starfleet far more than I would Harriman. The ship simply wasn't ready and it was unfortunate that an emergency situation cropped up right then and there. Harriman knew that--and that was the cause of his apparent indecision, IMO--but like any Captain of the Enterprise, he responded when there was lives on the line. Harriman's discomfort was intensified by the presence of Kirk and so many press watching his every move and recording it for posterity. The one thing Harriman might have done was get all non-essential personnel off his bridge, including Kirk.

It's not canon, of course, but the novels have generally said that after this maiden voyage, Harriman grew extensively from this experience and eventually became one of Starfleet's greatest captains during the timeframe of the late 23rd-Century/early 24th-Century. They even went on to say that Harriman was involved in the Tomed Incident that led to the Romulans avoiding further contact with the Federation for over 50 years...


Very good points.

I also think that starship captains have to be engineers of some sorts too. They have to know generally how their ship works so, while they may not be advanced specialists like engineers are, they do know how to swap out basic control circuits of various systems in an emergency. Picard, Sisko, Janeway, and even Archer were all seen occasionally removing an access panel to some system and doing a little emergency mechanical surgery every once in a while...

Looks like we are both on the same page here Commodore!
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  #25  
Old 04-03-2008, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Zardoz View Post
Yes, in optimal conditions, yes. They were dumb enough to leave with less than a skeleton crew, without major systems working, even on this "milk run."
I am not arguing with them having a skeleton crew. But there were a lot of officers on that bridge. All of which, at that moment, had better knowledge of the layout of that ship.

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Watch those scenes again. I would assume Starfleet basic layouts of key systems on ships don't get moved radically. Deflector control, is near the deflector, not near the shuttle bay, for example.
Bad Assumption. US Naval vessells layout vary greatly by ship class and though most equipment can likely be found in a similar location on a ship it wont be exactly where it is on another class vessell. I would assume that is more likely.


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But, as I pointed out before, there was a handy dandy MAP in the Turbolift. Kirk could also ask the computer for extact location after stating his destination. That computer is a blabbermouth...lol.
In a crisis situation, you need someone who knows where the equipment is located exactly...not someone who has to stop and ask for directions.



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But, who knew How to push? What to push? How to make it work? How to make systems do things they were not designed to do? Kirk? Chekov? Demora Sulu? No. Scotty, with 35+ years Starfleet experience, and experience on Excelcior class ships, or did you not see Star Trek 3?
And what did he do? We have no way of knowing. With your argument, Scotty would have had more knowledge of the ship design that Kirk, probably wrote half the tech manuals. Plus he worked on the Excelsior giving him more knowledge of the specific system that needed modifying and HOW to do it quickly.



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Well no where on the scenes, before, or afterwards, was there ANY indication of any enginerring officer on the ENT-B. When asked about medical staff, Harriman said "Tuesday.(His responce to most questions after the Emergency started)" I would assume since Scorrty jumped in, there was nobody else qualified.

I agree, in real life, this would NEVER have happened. But this Star Trek...
I am sorry, but with the fuel and source of energy they use being essentially a great big bomb that can blow them up at any moment...I find it really hard to believe they would leave spacedock without someone to closely monitor those engines...especially on a new ship that hasn't done a shakedown cruise.


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Yes, but it was not a hard thing to do. Looks like a trained monkey could have changed that chip. Getting there was the only obsticle, according to you, and I allready addressed that. Kirk could get there with no difficulty thanks to the MAP and asking the COMPUTER, even en route.
Again, during a crisis...you need someone who just knows where to go, not someone who needs to stop for directions.



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While this SOUNDS good. In TOS, faced with the same situation, Kirk would have stayed with the bridge also. Why? Because he would know that while this senior officer could command the ship, it was still HIS ship, HIS command, ultimately HIS head if it went wrong.
And that is the only reason that Harriman should have stayed.

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Kirk affored Harriman that same respect. Look Kirk even is shown thinking about it for a few seconds, before reminding Harriman, that a Capatin belongs on their bridge.
Which means Scotty should have gone. Look, All I am saying is that realisitically if it wasn't for the story necessity, Kirk would not have been the one to be sent to the deflector control room. He was once an Admiral, Commanded starships...didn't do maintenance in decades and only really had a cursory knowledge of where and how. I had to suspend my disbelief that Kirk knew how to do exactly what needed to be done.
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  #26  
Old 04-03-2008, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by trekgeekscott View Post
I am not arguing with them having a skeleton crew. But there were a lot of officers on that bridge. All of which, at that moment, had better knowledge of the layout of that ship.



Bad Assumption. US Naval vessells layout vary greatly by ship class and though most equipment can likely be found in a similar location on a ship it wont be exactly where it is on another class vessell. I would assume that is more likely.


In a crisis situation, you need someone who knows where the equipment is located exactly...not someone who has to stop and ask for directions.



And what did he do? We have no way of knowing. With your argument, Scotty would have had more knowledge of the ship design that Kirk, probably wrote half the tech manuals. Plus he worked on the Excelsior giving him more knowledge of the specific system that needed modifying and HOW to do it quickly.





I am sorry, but with the fuel and source of energy they use being essentially a great big bomb that can blow them up at any moment...I find it really hard to believe they would leave spacedock without someone to closely monitor those engines...especially on a new ship that hasn't done a shakedown cruise.




Again, during a crisis...you need someone who just knows where to go, not someone who needs to stop for directions.





And that is the only reason that Harriman should have stayed.



Which means Scotty should have gone. Look, All I am saying is that realisitically if it wasn't for the story necessity, Kirk would not have been the one to be sent to the deflector control room. He was once an Admiral, Commanded starships...didn't do maintenance in decades and only really had a cursory knowledge of where and how. I had to suspend my disbelief that Kirk knew how to do exactly what needed to be done.
I'm going to agree to disagree. You are comparing a real life naval ships to SF/Fantasy Starhips, which keep their basic forms (overall) and placement of major comonets (Nacelles, defectors, ect) has to be the same because we a fans expect them to be there.

I don't disagree diffrent classes of real life naval ships are totally diffrent in configurations at all.

But when it coems to Star Trek, just about ALL the ships, one can point to where the nacelle, defectors dish, bridge, ect are. Even someone who doesn't really watch the show can tell.

In real life a situation lkek this would never, ever happen in the US navy for example.

But Star Trek is drama/sf/fantasy. It was dramatic for Kirk to go (I still think logical)if for no other reason. We don't know what Scotty was doing for sure, but I assume he wasn't playing Pac-Man.

Your opion and debates have been good, but when it comes down to it, comparing real life navy ships and trek ships is liek comparing apples and hand grenades.
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  #27  
Old 04-03-2008, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Commodore View Post


I also think that starship captains have to be engineers of some sorts too. They have to know generally how their ship works so, while they may not be advanced specialists like engineers are, they do know how to swap out basic control circuits of various systems in an emergency. Picard, Sisko, Janeway, and even Archer were all seen occasionally removing an access panel to some system and doing a little emergency mechanical surgery every once in a while...
Of their ships/commands. On ships/commands they were intimately knowledgeable of. Picard, prior to Encounter at Farpoint hadn't commanded a ship for 9 years. So it is reasonable to say he had a part in the construction etc of the ship. Sisko actually helped design the Defiant. But in a crisis, they didn't do the work, somebody else did. Janeway wasn't that far removed from being a peon when she took command of Voyager and because there were no starbases, probably had to take a more active role. Kirk was not intimately knowledgeable about the Enterprise B. Even watch TOS more, when he actually had to operate a control, it looked like he was hesitant.
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  #28  
Old 04-03-2008, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Zardoz View Post
I'm going to agree to disagree. You are comparing a real life naval ships to SF/Fantasy Starhips, which keep their basic forms (overall) and placement of major comonets (Nacelles, defectors, ect) has to be the same because we a fans expect them to be there.

I don't disagree diffrent classes of real life naval ships are totally diffrent in configurations at all.

But when it coems to Star Trek, just about ALL the ships, one can point to where the nacelle, defectors dish, bridge, ect are. Even someone who doesn't really watch the show can tell.

In real life a situation lkek this would never, ever happen in the US navy for example.

But Star Trek is drama/sf/fantasy. It was dramatic for Kirk to go (I still think logical)if for no other reason. We don't know what Scotty was doing for sure, but I assume he wasn't playing Pac-Man.

Your opion and debates have been good, but when it comes down to it, comparing real life navy ships and trek ships is liek comparing apples and hand grenades.
On Naval ships the bridge, mess hall, engine rooms, screws, etc are all in generally the same place. But the specific equipment (like Kirk would have had to find) could be in vastly different places. In a crisis, as the B was, he didn't have time to go running around looking for it.

Trek military structure is nearly identical to Naval structure. Ranks, ships, very familiar. The comparison is valid. You can point to where the bridge is the bow of the ship, the stern...just like with star trek ships.

For the plot of the story to work Kirk had to be in the control room, alone. But I just don't think in a real crisis that would have happened.
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  #29  
Old 04-03-2008, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by trekgeekscott View Post
On Naval ships the bridge, mess hall, engine rooms, screws, etc are all in generally the same place. But the specific equipment (like Kirk would have had to find) could be in vastly different places. In a crisis, as the B was, he didn't have time to go running around looking for it.

Trek military structure is nearly identical to Naval structure. Ranks, ships, very familiar. The comparison is valid. You can point to where the bridge is the bow of the ship, the stern...just like with star trek ships.

For the plot of the story to work Kirk had to be in the control room, alone. But I just don't think in a real crisis that would have happened.

Sure. If you see it that way. I just agree to disagree, no need to convice me.
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  #30  
Old 04-03-2008, 07:31 AM
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In a crisis, as the B was, he didn't have time to go running around looking for it.
"Override! Where's the override...!"

Honestly, this situation is a no-holds-barred plot device. Then again, Trek has always been full of these 'forced moments', so I guess this was just a case of living up to the tradition, huh...?

(*Grin*)
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