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View Poll Results: Is Star Trek Generations more of a TNG film or TOS film?
TOS 0 0%
TNG 4 57.14%
TOS/TNG 2 28.57%
a mistake 1 14.29%
Voters: 7. You may not vote on this poll

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  #41  
Old 07-05-2014, 02:16 PM
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Yes, the Enterprise B scenes felt too much like elements of a Next Gen episode. The lines were not quite so character specific. In fact, that's why a lot of the original cast turned down appearing in the sequence....they felt that the lines were something anyone could say.

Yeah, Scotty's lines were very Next Gen....they didn't have that "miracle worker" charm that he had in the previous films or show. He just sounded like any other TNG character.
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  #42  
Old 07-06-2014, 04:07 AM
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With the Xmas scene I think the writers came at it from one of two ways. Either they were quite clever in that they created a scenario that on the surface looks idyllic but then just under the surface represents something that in the end would not satisfy Picard as an alternate life. Or they were a bit stupid and demonstrated that they really don't know the character very well. Either way I think there was a better scene trying to get out there, that said it fulfilled its purpose ok I guess.

I've often felt that Keonig and Doohan don't look comfortable in those scenes. They don't add anything or act particularly well, the dialogue just doesn't feel it like it was meant for them and I think they know that. It would have been nice if that scene had been rewritten with them in mind rather than recycling the dialogue. Most of the other TOS films have a level of humour or fun in a lot of the character scenes, it's just totally absent here. I would describe it as clinical and devoid of emotion, in a series of scenes which could have portrayed so much more.

The orders change depending on my mood but I consistently have 2,4,6,8 as my top films, 5 always at the bottom and 1,3,7,9,10 vying for the space in between.
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  #43  
Old 07-06-2014, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by samwiseb View Post
Picard mindlessly tosses aside that artifact that his archeology friend picked up for him.
That always bothered me as well, given how much emphasis was placed not only on the artifact itself but the importance of who it was who had given it to him. Even if Picard at this point in the film is thinking more about the photo album and that's his priority I did feel it was disrespectful of him to act like it was trash. It's maybe a funny thing to feel that way about but I never liked it myself.

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They never should've gotten rid of this ship. Yes, it was awkwardly shaped. The model didn't photograph well on a big screen. It was cheesy as hell having families aboard, and having a counselor sit next to the captain. How dated can you get? But it was who these people were, and it was TNG. Why not just shrug and own it, "warts and all"?
Thinking about what came afterwards, I think I really agree with this now.

The 'D' was TNG, and the idea of the 'Space Hilton' seems laughable now, but it was the concept of the show and the concept of the characters within that show and maybe it even on a subtler level it just highlights the difficulty of trying to balance out producing and presenting darker Trek and lighter Trek simultaneously.

The E's colour palette was obviously based around the DS9/Dominion War phase of Trek, when the background implication between the development and design of the two ships is the more overt militarisation of Starfleet again after two Borg attacks and a Dominion War about to kick off, versus the exploratory phase the fleet was in a few years earlier, but that military theme wasn't entirely TNG and TNG never entirely did 'dark' in the way that DS9 obviously did. It had moments, but in overall terms it didn't. I think that echoes the way I look at the four modern series (the two 'lighter ones - TNG and VOY, and the two darker ones - DS9 and ENT) because even in VOY they used lighter and softer grey tones for it than DS9 or ENT appeared to use I think to try and keep the overall colour scheme but just remind you that Voyager wasn't a battleship like a Sovereign Class.
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  #44  
Old 07-06-2014, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Roysten View Post
With the Xmas scene I think the writers came at it from one of two ways. Either they were quite clever in that they created a scenario that on the surface looks idyllic but then just under the surface represents something that in the end would not satisfy Picard as an alternate life. Or they were a bit stupid and demonstrated that they really don't know the character very well. Either way I think there was a better scene trying to get out there, that said it fulfilled its purpose ok I guess.
Yeah, it's a scene that kind of does the basic job but I think it is unsatisfactory on a lot of levels.

On the one hand, I can accept in the moment the idea that given what he's just lost the idea of the family he will now never have could be appealing to him, but only for a brief period because he's grieving. Picard isn't a family man and I don't think that would have made him happy in the long term. But more than that, I still have no idea why he would visualise some kind of cloying Dickensian Hallmark card as the setting. It just doesn't ring true for Picard. But on a basic level, I think the scene puts across the point it's trying to make regardless.

Although I figured the flashing lights weren't anything more than just looking like general stars twinkling, reminding him of space itself and not tied to the Amargosa Star or anything. But I guess you could look at that little bit whichever way suits.
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  #45  
Old 07-06-2014, 06:10 AM
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Well hopefully it's fun enough to justify the fact that we keep coming back to revisit it. At least you and Kevin with your 20 disc boxsets have an excuse in that you can shrug and say "oh well." I on the other hand bought each 2 disc special edition separately. And then held onto the ones that I thought had better film transfers than their counterparts in my BluRay sets (which is most of them).
I think this conversation has come up before a couple years ago, but I've only got 'Star Trek' and 'Star Trek Into Darkness' on Blu-ray just now. I bought the remastered Season 1 of 'The Next Generation' on it but then I never managed to keep up with the rest because of the costs and now I figure I'm as well waiting until they release the complete TNG Blu-ray boxset which isn't listed yet but which I have no doubt will appear once all seven seasons are separately released.

But I've kept the 20 disc DVD set because it cost so much to buy in the first place I can't justify getting rid of it for no good reason. I had been curious about what the non-Abrams' films looked like on Blu-ray because of the newly done commentaries etc but I'm not sure which films have been properly tidied up for Blu-ray and which have just been slapped on a disc with minimal clean up and or remastering. Basically, which ones are worth it and which might not be. I've yet to see a film really look worse on Blu-ray but it seems most get a clean up of some level before being released. I guess I'm also waiting for a good quality complete box set rather than go back to having to buy them all separately on Blu-ray...............and also because frankly the packaging on the individual discs is not that nice looking for me.

That's sort of irrelevant I guess but I figure a box set would be neater and take up less space. For instance, I know the individual Blu-ray of 'TMP' is the original cut which I would actually like to have again to be able to compare to the Robert Wise Director's cut only on the DVD set, but which I believe wasn't done with Blu-ray in mind so can't be transferred as it is.
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  #46  
Old 07-06-2014, 10:16 AM
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To my knowledge, STII is the only film that's ever been remastered, and quite extensively because the negative was in poor shape. But they did something weird with the color timing and everything came out with a strong emphasis on yellow and blue (including spaceship models and fleshtones). Videophiles still insist this is how the pictures is supposed to look and "don't let anyone tell you otherwise," however I suspect that's just because it doesn't have all the edge enhancement and noise reduction that's supposedly on all the other transfers (like I could even tell, but apparently these things are more objectionable than screwing up the color timing).

So yeah, the HD transfers on almost all the older ST films are widely considered to be sub-par. I would definitely give TNG on BluRay a higher priority at this point. It sounds like the sets have sold below expectations, and wise money is currently betting against CBS ever deciding (or getting around to deciding) to remaster DS9 in HD. I hate to say it, but I've been keeping on top of the TNG BluRays with just that hope in mind. Oh well.
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  #47  
Old 07-06-2014, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roysten View Post
With the Xmas scene I think the writers came at it from one of two ways. Either they were quite clever in that they created a scenario that on the surface looks idyllic but then just under the surface represents something that in the end would not satisfy Picard as an alternate life. Or they were a bit stupid and demonstrated that they really don't know the character very well. Either way I think there was a better scene trying to get out there, that said it fulfilled its purpose ok I guess.
I'm more inclined to assume the latter, that they didn't know him very well in this particular case. If the unintentionally gave him some depth by having him not understand himself very well in this particular case, then I'm fine with that. But I don't think that would've been what they were going for.

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Originally Posted by kevin View Post
Although I figured the flashing lights weren't anything more than just looking like general stars twinkling, reminding him of space itself and not tied to the Amargosa Star or anything. But I guess you could look at that little bit whichever way suits.
I always took it to not even refer to space necessarily, but merely some intangible imperfection (or lack thereof) that made Picard start to wonder where he was. Rather like just beginning to figure out that you're in a dream. However, their commentary does mention that they had supernovas specifically in mind, whether people got that or not. And I don't think it matters if they didn't.

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Originally Posted by kevin View Post
That always bothered me as well, given how much emphasis was placed not only on the artifact itself but the importance of who it was who had given it to him. Even if Picard at this point in the film is thinking more about the photo album and that's his priority I did feel it was disrespectful of him to act like it was trash. It's maybe a funny thing to feel that way about but I never liked it myself.
I know Car Crash Geek didn't like it. I think in his video he played Picard's whole lecture to Riker of what the artifact was, juxtaposed with the shot of him tossing it aside in between every sentence. Then again he also didn't like the lighting either. And for his comparison he picked a bridge shot from the most brightly-lit soft-focus episode he could find (probably a season five or six ep), unintentionally underscoring exactly why the TV series lighting wouldn't have worked for the movie.

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Originally Posted by kevin View Post
The E's colour palette was obviously based around the DS9/Dominion War phase of Trek, when the background implication between the development and design of the two ships is the more overt militarisation of Starfleet again after two Borg attacks and a Dominion War about to kick off, versus the exploratory phase the fleet was in a few years earlier, but that military theme wasn't entirely TNG and TNG never entirely did 'dark' in the way that DS9 obviously did. It had moments, but in overall terms it didn't. I think that echoes the way I look at the four modern series (the two 'lighter ones - TNG and VOY, and the two darker ones - DS9 and ENT) because even in VOY they used lighter and softer grey tones for it than DS9 or ENT appeared to use I think to try and keep the overall colour scheme but just remind you that Voyager wasn't a battleship like a Sovereign Class.
Herman Zimmerman's work on the post-TNG sets feels like a step backwards for me anyway because they recall his work on the last two TOS feature films. Thing is, I think you kind of had to scale the hardware back a bit after TNG, which was already riding very the edge of what was still visually dramatic between its touch-interface screens and skintight jumpsuits. But I also see each subsequent series as being dimmer and more colorless than the last, and it's disconcerting to realize the same trend was happening on the big screen (I think the jazzy blue neon floor lights prevented me from noticing it in theaters, until maybe you were the one who pointed out that everything on the E bridge was really brown or black). I tend to think of VOY as a 'darker' series though: both in terms of its dull grey production design and its (seeming) fondness for the kind of 'eerie' bizarre-concept stories that also exemplified TNG in its final seasons.
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  #48  
Old 07-07-2014, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by samwiseb View Post
I always took it to not even refer to space necessarily, but merely some intangible imperfection (or lack thereof) that made Picard start to wonder where he was. Rather like just beginning to figure out that you're in a dream. However, their commentary does mention that they had supernovas specifically in mind, whether people got that or not. And I don't think it matters if they didn't.
Does it? I still never went back and took a pass at it. Fair enough.

Quote:
I tend to think of VOY as a 'darker' series though: both in terms of its dull grey production design and its (seeming) fondness for the kind of 'eerie' bizarre-concept stories that also exemplified TNG in its final seasons.
Ah, see that's what I would probably just view as examples of 'silly' Trek sometimes, where the wacky stuff started to creep in again but tend to think overall of VOY being closer in overall tone and style to TNG, rather than DS9 or ENT so I guess that's why I sometimes very generally put them where I do mentally.
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  #49  
Old 07-08-2014, 11:43 AM
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Like Guinan said, "it's as real as you want it to be", the Nexus was never properly explained but I personally feel that as much as Picard was trying to become absorbed in his fantasy he still had his mission in the back of his mind, which to me manifested itself as him seeing the supernovae in the baubles.

Voy had darker stories IMO, certainly darker than TNG, but compared to DS9 and ENT it didn't push things as far. I wouldn't say it's necessarily lighter either, as TNG, ENT and DS9 especially all had their share of comedy and fluffy episodes. I've always liked VOY, but ultimately it seemed to suffer from poorer writing and the things that seperate it in terms of themes and story arcs were pretty much all inferior to the themes and story arcs of the other shows.
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  #50  
Old 07-08-2014, 10:08 PM
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I agree that VOY resembles TNG more than anything else. It wanted to be TNG minus DS9, making it the 'safe' TNG. It was TNG without 'Sins of the Father', 'Reunion' or 'The First Duty'. TNG minus any episode in which the writers or producers might've had to fight against each other in order to have it get made.

If I had to come up with a list of TNG eps that I thought would be "right at home" on VOY, it would probably include 'The Royale', 'The Bonding', 'Allegiance', 'Night Terrors', 'Identity Crises', 'The Host', ' Power Play', 'Hero Worship', 'Imaginary Friend', 'Cause and Effect', 'Schisms', 'Frame of Mind', 'Genesis', 'Eye of the Beholder' 'Emergence' and 'Phantasms'. I couldn't even tell you why I picked those episodes (I did not slip my Mean Spirited cap on, nor did I look up which ones Braga had written until I had trouble assigning a particular title to an episode), but there they are.
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