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  #1  
Old 10-17-2013, 11:05 AM
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Default Khan's transformation explained!

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/171...darkness.jhtml

And from startrek.com:

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Old 10-17-2013, 01:04 PM
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Interesting, but seriously lame trying to justify rehashing the script at the last minute because they couldn't get Benicio or some other Latino actor.
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Old 10-17-2013, 01:43 PM
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It does carry the whiff of backtracking and only a smallish percentage of fans will likely go to the effort of getting it................but then I also really had no interest in the 'outcry' anyway.
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Old 10-17-2013, 01:57 PM
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They should have done one of two things. Cast Khan more accurately, or tailored the role to better suit Cumberbatch. Khan wasn't the only product of the Eugenics program. Khan was in fact said in Space Seed to be "the best of the tyrants". Cumberbatch could have been one of the worst of said tyrants.

I liked the movie, and this wasn't a deal breaker for me. But it just wasn't a great fit. And Cumberbatch was very good, he just isn't Khan.
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Old 10-17-2013, 05:59 PM
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Oddly enough this is not the first time that this has come up. 30 years ago when TWoK was released, many fans noted that most of Khan's followers were blonde haired blue eyed types including Joachim. In Space Seed, Khan's people were a more representative mix including Joachim. It was theorized by some that this particular group of 'supermen' had a sort of 'chameleon' adaptation in their genetics. This would certainly explain things quite well.
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Old 10-17-2013, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin View Post
They should have done one of two things. Cast Khan more accurately, or tailored the role to better suit Cumberbatch. Khan wasn't the only product of the Eugenics program. Khan was in fact said in Space Seed to be "the best of the tyrants". Cumberbatch could have been one of the worst of said tyrants.

I liked the movie, and this wasn't a deal breaker for me. But it just wasn't a great fit. And Cumberbatch was very good, he just isn't Khan.
I agree, Cumberbatch's character was well-written but more of a generic villain than Khan.
In my opinion the main cause for this was the ahistoricity of the plot (it took OldSpock to tell them what should have been in their history books!), Khan appeared to be more of a out-of-the-blue character than a shadow from the past.
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Old 10-18-2013, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by horatio View Post
I agree, Cumberbatch's character was well-written but more of a generic villain than Khan.
In my opinion the main cause for this was the ahistoricity of the plot (it took OldSpock to tell them what should have been in their history books!), Khan appeared to be more of a out-of-the-blue character than a shadow from the past.
I will admit, that although it was great seeing Nimoy again, this was one scene that could've been done a different way, and felt more like an excuse to bring him back for just one more.

I've bought "Khan" and am enjoying it so far. Heh, when I was at the comic store, one patron commented: "Ugh, the bad Khan." I looked at him quizzically. He continued: "Sorry, but he's just not a good Khan." He didn't quite like it when I pointed out that this Khan kicked more *** in two minutes on screen than the original Khan did in Space Seed and TWoK put together. I reassured the poor fanboy that I did indeed still enjoy the original Khan, but this made me feel like I was watching Khan in action, the way he should've been portrayed.
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Old 10-18-2013, 06:28 AM
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In Space Seed Khan had a fight with Kirk but admittedly it was rather Montalban's muscles and body language which created the impression of a physically superior and aggressive human.
In TWOK he appeared more like a conventional master who commands his minions. While he does some of the sadistically pleasurable work (the Ceti eels) in general he just pulls the strings.
In STID he is on his own which is precisely why the Khan vibes are missing a bit. The guy is not a superhero movie kind of lonesome psychopath (Cumberbatch is great in playing him as this!) but a ruler and thus a social creature; he is interesting precisely when he interacts with other people, charms them and makes them follow him willingly (Space Seed would not work without McGivers) respectively subjugates them.

When Khan goes crazy in TWOK he somehow becomes ridiculous. It's kinda like with a stern father, his authority rests on his demeanour, his piercing look and so on, i.e. more on the threat than the execution. When he loses his temper and hits you it does of course hurt but he also does become to some degree impotent. You can perceive this loss of authority in TWOK when Joachim questions Khan, it is clear that he is only following him because he perceives him as a boss who gives commands and not as a leader who knows best anymore.
And I think this is why Khan doesn't feel a 100% like Khan in STID, he is in crazy revenge mode ever since Marcus tricked him. While we do see his calculating side for some time we never see Khan the former ruler of a quarter of the Earth, Khan the political creature.

TWOK is a great movie not because of but in spite of Khan. The character has his best moments in Space Seed so repeating patterns from TWOK ad infinitum without actually thinking about them is bound to fail. And lest I am misunderstood, I like Cumberbatch's villain but not the name of the villain.
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Old 10-18-2013, 10:03 AM
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I fully get ya, Horatio.

Yes, the one thing we really didn't get to see from Cumberbatch's Khan was that charisma to lead men and women...and yeah, the threat of what would happen if one of his own disobeyed him. No inclination that the people he tried to protect were "sworn to live and die at his command".

The only thing we saw in Into Darkness, as far as bending others to his will was his willingness to save Harewood's little girl, and you could see on his face that there was a horrible price to be named in return.

He did, however, display the cunning and cold logic worthy of Khan, especially given his knowledge of StarFleet operations.

He played the charlatan well. Just as Montalban's Khan was a man out of time, and he used that to his advantage to gain further knowledge and a sympathetic ear from Kirk and crew in the prime timeline, this Khan was a charlatan in that he brought himself to shed tears for the people he "held dear", and he got just enough sympathy from this Kirk to say "look, you help me out, and I'll do what I can to protect your people."

However, there really didn't seem to be much A to B to C to have the audience anticipate that Khan would eventually revert to his old stripes, and betray Kirk and crew. Kirk just kinda told Scotty: "Down him as soon as we have the bridge" on the basis that he figured that it wasn't Khan helping them, but the other way around. The only way that much of the audience would anticipate that Khan would betray them is if they had knowledge of the original Khan. I think that was the reason for the scene with Spock Prime...so for those new audience folk who didn't really know who Khan was, there was a basis for them to now say: "Whoa! Something's amiss here." Kirk just kinda took it upon himself to make a leap of logic, and presume that Khan was going to betray them. (I would gather he deduced this with Khan's disappearing and then reappearing again, both in the flight over from the Enterprise, and during their brawl with security on the Vengeance.)
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Old 10-20-2013, 07:56 AM
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I totally agree. To be fair about OldSpock in STID, while a chorus-like scene in which a character explicitly explains something is problematic few sci-fi and superhero movies can do without one. Furthermore a movie can be good without Khan being brilliant (otherwise TWOK would not be so popular) and of course your previous point is totally correct, Khan simply kicks a*s in the scene with the Klingons. We cannot pretend that Space Seed is not the eternal benchmark* for Khan but this does not mean that a Khan which differs from the original character setup is automatically bad.

Khan's lack of backstory and out of the blue appearance in STID is perhaps also partly due to Abrams' mystery preferences (which also influences the visuals, e.g. Qo'noS is quite opaque and maze-like in the D4 hunt scene). A character is after all not a fixpoint, unchangeable through all the stories in which he or she appears, but subject to all kind of influences. Kirk, initially designed to be no difference to the contemplative Pike but then influenced by Shatner's energetic acting, is probably the best Trek illustration of this.

* - When we hear Khan the first thing which comes to mind is most likely him reciting Melville and while this is his undoubtedly his most intense and beautiful scene it is not a quintessential Khan scene just like Picard's Moby Dick scene in FC is not defining who Picard is. The very use of Ahab in both cases rather shows that it is atypical, being destroyed by a hunger for revenge is a universal issue and not Picard- or Khanesque.
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