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  #21  
Old 09-12-2013, 05:42 AM
samwiseb samwiseb is offline
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Ah, but maybe to such people I want to be a dishonorable scumbag who does not love his country. Think of it, these people like to brag that they're real men because they're willing to get their dicks shot off. They're doing it for scumbags like me who wouldn't sacrifice (or so they say). Like I said, how it must stick in their craw.

If I were a politician I would have to play lip service to patriotism just to not be a detriment to my party. Thankfully I am not.
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  #22  
Old 09-12-2013, 10:40 AM
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horatio horatio is offline
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As people like Marcus do not really care about their country but have ulterior motives they could not care less about people who claim to be unpatriotic.
But they can easily portray self-proclaimed "anti-patriots" to be dishonourable and worthless scumbags. I think it is smarter propaganda-wise to turn everything around and beat them at their own game. Be the better patriot.
I don't want this to become political but I wanna use one example. When one side pretends to care about family the reaction of the other side should not be this post 68 game: we care about individualism but not about family. No, the proper reaction is to say that the policies of the other have destroyed families and that you are pro family. But you are also for family in an extended sense, i.e. family is simply a place where people face stable external conditions (in plain English, safe and well-paying jobs) and love each other so patchwork families and homosexual relationships can be family. If you let guys like Gingrich who divorce their wife when she has cancer take ownership of the term family you have already lost before you even started to fight.

By the way, while jingoism is a dirty word patriotism is not. Jingoism means that you mistreat people who are members of other political entities whereas patriotism means that you work for your country, for the public good. This is what Kirk and Picard do after all. And sometimes this work includes finding and fighting against the enemy in your own ranks (which makes, to use real-world examples, people like Chelsea Manning far more patriotic than the thousands of civil servants who committed war crimes, actively covered them up, passively did not report them or worked on shutting up and imprisoning the guy who revealed them).

I am simply not willing to let the scum of the earth define and dirty terms like patriotism and honour. Do not yield even one inch of (ideological) territory.
An interesting movie from the year, The East, showed something similar.
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  #23  
Old 09-12-2013, 01:23 PM
samwiseb samwiseb is offline
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No, I agree. How you want to react to certain people/situations is often a very different thing from how you should react. I wouldn't even make an effective anti-patriot anyway, since I've never really felt like I understood what honor or patriotism 'means' beyond the literal definitions of those terms. It's just my 'gut' reaction to that kind of person (Jack Nicholson's Jessup being a example in my mind, since I think we get a much better picture of how he ticks). But you're also right in that he probably wouldn't give a damn.

May add in my thoughts on ST later if I have the time.
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  #24  
Old 09-16-2013, 11:47 AM
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Captain Tom Coughlin Captain Tom Coughlin is offline
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So, if Markus wanted to draw the Klingons into war, I imagine it's because he thinks that the Federation can win said war. So, does that mean that there is more than just one Vengeance type Dreadnaught out there?

The whole point of Khan was for him to develop weapons and tactics for this war with the Klingons, and since the Admiral felt ready to start his war, that must mean more than one advanced ship, no?
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  #25  
Old 09-22-2013, 02:45 AM
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The writers never taught about the Federation-Klingon conflict so deeply, it was not the focus of the film.
And the Vengeance was not something like the Defiant but simply the repetition of a pattern that works.







Isn't it strange that the "Khan(copy) plus giant dark juggernaut" pattern was kicked off by one of the worst Trek movies? One the one hand you can give them props for decoupling the idea from NEM and thus making it more decent / freeing it of being associated with a bad movie, on the other hand borrowing from a bad flick might not be the smartest idea and the very ingredient you borrow might not have been neutral but contributed to the badness.
Better borrow from the giants like The Bard as they did in the good ol' days of TOS.
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