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  #101  
Old 06-05-2013, 08:52 AM
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kevin kevin is offline
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That was the whole idea though, that the genetic experimentation at the time created smarter and more ambitious men who had the strength and resolve to impose their version of 'order' on the populations.

I guess I figure the term 'best' of the tyrants still leaves a lot of leeway for what his rule was like. Either that or 300 years frozen puts you in a pisser of a mood. Which it seems to.
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  #102  
Old 06-05-2013, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by kevin View Post
That was the whole idea though, that the genetic experimentation at the time created smarter and more ambitious men who had the strength and resolve to impose their version of 'order' on the populations.

I guess I figure the term 'best' of the tyrants still leaves a lot of leeway for what his rule was like. Either that or 300 years frozen puts you in a pisser of a mood. Which it seems to.
And the admiral was using his crew as blackmail and leverage. I can see how that would piss off a guy
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  #103  
Old 06-05-2013, 09:20 AM
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Marcus thought he could keep him under control and took what he saw as an acceptable risk in pursuit of his objectives. But, like so many Starfleet Admirals who seem to make questionable decisions, he just focused that ability ultimately on himself. And Khan was able to cause immense damage as a result. The genie in the bottle needs to stay in the bottle.
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  #104  
Old 06-05-2013, 11:41 AM
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Khan is such a great villain because he is quite rational. Nothing against the later part of TWOK but when he is consumed by his desire for revenge (and Joachim tries to calmly tries to convince him of what would be best for the Augments) he becomes a bit of a joke. Same with Malik wanting to eradicate a Klingon colony in The Augments. TWOK does not work because of but in spite of Khan going crazy.

But rewriting the past of Khan and making Frankenstein's monster into Frankenstein himself is plain stupid. It also wasn't necessary, being a tyrant is already evil enough. But I guess they just had to make him into an always genocidal super-uber-evil villain.
It's kinda like with Dukat in DS9, somehow the folks in charge could not resist retarding a complex character into some stupid one-dimensional incarnation of evil. I always liked the Trek stories which said that evil is among us and not out there. Most eugenic stories, be it Savage Curtain or Farpoint, clearly emphasized that humankind was the bad guy and not its creations.
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  #105  
Old 06-05-2013, 12:33 PM
samwiseb samwiseb is offline
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Khan seems consistent enough in both scenarios. Seems to me it's Spock's reaction to him in both timestreams that's the issue, and that too is consistent. Spock is probably the least likely to recognize any of Khan's positive attributes, just from his own pacifist standpoint. When they're talking about him in 'Space Seed' I seem to recall (quite fondly) Spock having one of his classic raised-eyebrow faces that reads "Seriously? You guys just said that?"
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  #106  
Old 06-05-2013, 12:34 PM
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I think the film has the intention to actually say that, that it's the evil (I don't think evil is strictly the right word since Marcus believes he's doing the right thing) among us which must be guarded against. And the choices that were made under certain circumstances. Khan and his actions are the terrible consequence (via reawakening) of decisions made elsewhere. However without a doubt, the level of success it attains in doing so.................as always, mileage varies.
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Last edited by kevin : 06-05-2013 at 01:19 PM. Reason: This thing chucks me out but shows me logged in. Go figure.
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  #107  
Old 06-05-2013, 03:54 PM
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The whole genocide line, in a way I liken it to the Star Fleet being a peace keeping armada thing in '09. It's like a shorthand meant to give new viewers a quick understanding of what Khan is without dwelling on it too long.
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  #108  
Old 06-05-2013, 04:30 PM
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This is probably the best interpretation. Long-running franchises which probably cannot avoid mixing some exposition into the dialogue from time to time. It happens often enough in Doctor Who.

But in general it is better to do it en passant or in the background. For example in TWOK Starfleet seems to do more military and less scientific work and all this is done via the conflict between Marcus and Kirk and David calling Starfleet the military. In combination with the new uniforms it created a far more powerful image of Starfleet than words alone could have done (and mightily pissed of Roddenberry ). Unlike TOS which also worked like this TNG had some awkwardly self-conscious "we do not do this or that stuff anymore" moments (not counting Picard in FC as he actually needed a kick in the butt a 21st century person to make his self-description come true).

On the other hand exposition can be powerful, e.g. a few Spock lines in Balance of Terror created an entire fictional historic event.
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  #109  
Old 06-12-2013, 06:21 AM
janice2002 janice2002 is offline
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Great villain, but I would have liked to have seen Cumberbatch play someone other than Khan. He was great as the "bad guy" but was he great as Khan?

I actually liked it up to the point they did the fanboy rewrite of TWOK, then I was kind of "....ehhh....." but they wrapped it up well and the five year mission is underway.

Must say, Pike's death was far more moving than Kirk's. Maybe because I've seen the way that scene originally played out, it killed the emotional impact for me, I don't know, but I'm a bit ticked that Pike is gone.

I'm more than a bit ticked for what they did to PIKE. I hated that they actually killed him off. Death wasn't necessary. It just ruined the movie for me. 3 scenes and 30 min in and he was gone!! BAD decision!!
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  #110  
Old 06-12-2013, 07:28 AM
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I'm more than a bit ticked for what they did to PIKE. I hated that they actually killed him off. Death wasn't necessary. It just ruined the movie for me. 3 scenes and 30 min in and he was gone!! BAD decision!!
I was surprised he lasted for the whole first film!

I was fully expecting him to be killed off during the previous film, so i wasn't surprised when it happened in this one.

I'd have liked him to have had a bit more screentime before dying though.
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