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  #51  
Old 05-30-2013, 07:14 AM
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It took him a year to plan. But the fact that he actually managed to get his people into the cryo tubes indicates that either he smuggled them there very slowly, one at a time, and absolutely no one checked the secure location they were being held in.
Which is highly unlikely in my opinion because like you said:

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Originally Posted by DNA-1842 View Post
Given how clever he's meant to be, the security must have been pretty good
I agree and think that Admiral Marcus would keep the only bargaining chip he has with Khan under very tight lock and key. If it were me, I would have transport inhibitors, guards, security out the ying-yang, etc. I would also be doing a visual count of those tubes daily if not more frequently to make sure they aren't wondering off.

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OR he managed to enact his plan in one swift motion. he got caught trying to smuggle his people away.
Much more likely but I don't see how Khan would think that moving 72 cryo tubes from a highly secure loction in to torpedoes would not get him caught?

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Originally Posted by DNA-1842 View Post
Basically:

Harrison is awoken by Marcus;

Marcus holds his people as hostages to force Harrison to work for him;

Harrison educates himself about 23rd century technology, and begrudgingly designs weapons and stuff for Marcus;

Secretly, Harrison plots to sneak his people away;

This plot includes designing a torpedo with a casing that would be perfect for smuggling the cryo tubes away undetected;

Harrison risks discovery by enacting the first part of the plan;

Harrison is discovered, and is led to believe that Marcus has killed his people, but manages to escape and evade Section 31's clutches;

Marcus remains silent about the escape of this dangerous man, as this operation is top secret and involves illegal weapons and possible warmongering;

Harrison wreaks revenge by exploiting his knowledge of the workforce of Section 31 to force Mickey Smith's great-great-great-grandson to blow up the weapons development facility that he worked at;

Marcus goes public with the knowledge of "John Harrison", but lies about what really happened;

Harrison attempts to kill Marcus and cripple Starfleet, killing Captain Pike;

James T Kirk offers to take revenge on Harrison, Marcus uses this blind rage to his advantage and gives Kirk the torpedoes in the hope that Kirk will be rash and simply fire them, and that the explosion from the propulsion fuel of 72 torpedoes would be enough to kill Harrison and destroy any traceable evidence of Khan's people;

(He also ensures that the Enterprise is crippled in Klingon space, so that they would definitely be caught, and war would start);

James T Kirk listens to his friends;

Sulu informs Harrison that they have 72 torpedoes aimed at him;

Harrison surrenders, realising that Marcus had deceived him.
A good summary of the events that follow and I agree with you that everything from the point after Khan's intial attack seems to fall in place pretty well.

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I'd like to know that as well, but that would have slowed the story down.
Sorry but you're making excuses for lazy writing here. Khan's motive is important and it could have been explained with out slowing down the story. Khan's intial plan to smuggle his crew out in those torpedos is pretty stupid if you ask me. After going threw this disscusion with you I think it would have made more sense had Admiral Marcus been the one to put Khan's crew into those torpedos with out Khan's knowledge as a way to get rid of them. Then have Khan find out about Admiral Marcus' plan and the rest of the film could have played out as it did.

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They could put that into a tie-in comic.
Sorry but I don't care about the comics and again that's an excuse for something that could have been simply explained in the film.

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They think there is an active warhead in there at first because the device says it's active. The shielding prevented them from knowing what was inside.

When they were beamed to the Vengeance, the cryo tubes had been removed and replaced with warheads from the Enterprise's own arsenalc
That's an assumption and never clearly stated. Kirk assumed when the torpedoes went off on the Vengeance that Spock just killed the 72 people in those torpedoes. If the only way to set them off was to replace the cyro tubes with warheads why did Kirk make that assumption?

Last edited by Enterprise Captain : 05-30-2013 at 09:52 AM.
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  #52  
Old 05-30-2013, 05:28 PM
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So then Khan put his men in the torpedoes to escape from Marcus, but was caught in the act somehow before he could smuggle them away. I guess that's it.
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  #53  
Old 05-30-2013, 05:48 PM
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So then Khan put his men in the torpedoes to escape from Marcus, but was caught in the act somehow before he could smuggle them away. I guess that's it.
Well, one would have to assume that Khan knew Marcus plans to attack the Klingon home world… that's why Khan went there… hoping Marcus would try to kill two birds with 72 photons… so to speak… so he put his men in them and hoped to stop who ever was sent after him by giving himself up and then somehow taking control of the vessel carrying the torpedoes… Marcus knew Kirk was a hothead and would do everything to avenge Pike… that's why Marcus chose him… but of course the plan backfired when Kirk didn't carry out his orders.

Any way you cut it, its pretty lame.
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  #54  
Old 05-30-2013, 06:05 PM
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So then Khan put his men in the torpedoes to escape from Marcus, but was caught in the act somehow before he could smuggle them away. I guess that's it.
That's it.

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Originally Posted by omegaman View Post
Well, one would have to assume that Khan knew Marcus plans to attack the Klingon home world… that's why Khan went there… hoping Marcus would try to kill two birds with 72 photons… so to speak… so he put his men in them and hoped to stop who ever was sent after him by giving himself up and then somehow taking control of the vessel carrying the torpedoes… Marcus knew Kirk was a hothead and would do everything to avenge Pike… that's why Marcus chose him… but of course the plan backfired when Kirk didn't carry out his orders.

Any way you cut it, its pretty lame.
Khan's original plan is pretty lame. Khan thought his crew was dead though when he had the "archive" blown up. Like DNA-1842 said Khan only found out his crew may still be alive was after Sulu sent the message to him and that was the only reason Khan surrendered.
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  #55  
Old 05-30-2013, 07:12 PM
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That's it.


Khan's original plan is pretty lame. Khan thought his crew was dead though when he had the "archive" blown up. Like DNA-1842 said Khan only found out his crew may still be alive was after Sulu sent the message to him and that was the only reason Khan surrendered.
No, Khan knew the people were inside the tubes. That's why he surrendered. He obviously placed them there, not Marcus.
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  #56  
Old 05-31-2013, 02:08 AM
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No, Khan knew the people were inside the tubes. That's why he surrendered. He obviously placed them there, not Marcus.
He knew they were inside the tubes because he put them there. Then he got caught and Marcus made him think they'd all been killed.

THEN Sulu informs him that they have 72 torpedoes on board, and Khan realises that Marcus kept his people alive.

He didn't know the Enterprise had his people until Sulu told him about the torpedoes.
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  #57  
Old 05-31-2013, 03:25 AM
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I agree and think that Admiral Marcus would keep the only bargaining chip he has with Khan under very tight lock and key. If it were me, I would have transport inhibitors, guards, security out the ying-yang, etc. I would also be doing a visual count of those tubes daily if not more frequently to make sure they aren't wondering off.
Hence he got caught, yes?

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Much more likely but I don't see how Khan would think that moving 72 cryo tubes from a highly secure location in to torpedoes would not get him caught?
It doesn't sound like he had much of a choice. He was tasked with making weapons. He made that into a ploy to effect his escape and the freedom of his people.


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Sorry but you're making excuses for lazy writing here. Khan's motive is important and it could have been explained with out slowing down the story. Khan's initial plan to smuggle his crew out in those torpedoes is pretty stupid if you ask me. After going through this discussion with you I think it would have made more sense had Admiral Marcus been the one to put Khan's crew into those torpedoes with out Khan's knowledge as a way to get rid of them. Then have Khan find out about Admiral Marcus' plan and the rest of the film could have played out as it did.
No. Harrison saying "I assumed" AND not showing us what happened would be lazy writing.

Harrison saying "I had every reason to think" and leaving it up to the viewers to fill in that small blank is not lazy. Because we are not merely given that line, we are given Benedict Cumberbatch's very good acting to show that this man really did have every reason to think that the only people in the world that he held in any regard were all dead.

What would have been really clunky would be having a flashback with Admiral Marcus drawling about how he is going to "test" these torpedoes on some dead moon somewhere. If you put it before the "reveal" of Khan then we are given no reason to connect with his grief over the loss of these inanimate objects.

If you put it after that then it has to be before Marcus turns up in the "Vengeance". And up until Marcus turns up in his ship that screams "This guy is evil", you aren't actually meant to be quite sure how honest Harrison is being.

___

With your other theory:

Why does Marcus want to get rid of Harrison's people?

Is it because Harrison blew up the "archive"?

Why would Harrison blow up the archive if he thought his people were still alive?

Why would Marcus make Harrison think his people were dead if he hadn't tried to free them?

How would you communicate to the audience Harrison's attempt to smuggle his people away that fits into the plot? (Harrison is made to design weapons - Harrison tricks Marcus and secretly uses this as an opportunity to free his people - Spock tricks Harrison and exploits the fact that they were supposed to be torpedoes to disable the "Vengeance". That sort of thing.)

Why would Marcus put them in torpedoes if they weren't already in them? (There are easier ways to get rid of a room full of cryo tubes if you don't need them to go anywhere. He only gave the torpedoes to Kirk because Harrison had already put them there and since they couldn't be scanned then no more people had to know what was really in them. If he decided to put them in the torpedoes in response to Harrison blowing up the archives he could simply have blown up wherever the cryo tubes had been and claimed it was a second attack by Harrison.)

How would you communicate to the audience that Harrison knows or finds out about Marcus putting his people in the torpedoes?

If Khan knew that his people were in the torpedoes because Marcus put them there, how do you communicate Marcus' reasoning behind putting them in torpedoes? He was in charge of Section 31. He has no reason to smuggle them in such a convoluted fashion. Harrison did it that way because he was simply using the resources he had available. (Weapons.) Marcus has the whole of Section 31 and most of Starfleet at his disposal. If they weren't already in torpedo casings with a young, hot-headed starship commander ready to go take revenge on a terrorist-guy in Klingon territory he needn't have bothered disposing them in such a complicated ploy.

Marcus is a stupid man. That was established. (First he trusts Harrison to help him without being clever enough to escape, then he trusts Kirk not to listen to his Vulcan first officer.) He was paranoid bordering on the delusional so using the situation to his advantage in a risky fashion was in-character for him. Arbitrarily deciding to place cryo-tubes in torpedo casings is not.


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That's an assumption and never clearly stated. Kirk assumed when the torpedoes went off on the Vengeance that Spock just killed the 72 people in those torpedoes. If the only way to set them off was to replace the cyro tubes with warheads why did Kirk make that assumption?
It is an assumption. There are two possibilities: The propulsion fuel was detonated, or they put warheads in them.

The warheads would have to be really small to fit in there alongside the cryo tubes. And if the warheads for those torpedoes were really small, why would anyone approve a design that includes seven feet of completely empty space? Unless that space is where the warhead is meant to go. [Or the torpedoes are bigger on the inside.]

Kirk had just been attacked by Harrison and beamed across from the other ship, with no knowledge of Spock's plan. What is he going to do, work out immediately what Spock did or prompt another character to reveal to the audience what the plan was?
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  #58  
Old 05-31-2013, 04:18 AM
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Hence he got caught, yes?



It doesn't sound like he had much of a choice. He was tasked with making weapons. He made that into a ploy to effect his escape and the freedom of his people.




No. Harrison saying "I assumed" AND not showing us what happened would be lazy writing.

Harrison saying "I had every reason to think" and leaving it up to the viewers to fill in that small blank is not lazy. Because we are not merely given that line, we are given Benedict Cumberbatch's very good acting to show that this man really did have every reason to think that the only people in the world that he held in any regard were all dead.

What would have been really clunky would be having a flashback with Admiral Marcus drawling about how he is going to "test" these torpedoes on some dead moon somewhere. If you put it before the "reveal" of Khan then we are given no reason to connect with his grief over the loss of these inanimate objects.

If you put it after that then it has to be before Marcus turns up in the "Vengeance". And up until Marcus turns up in his ship that screams "This guy is evil", you aren't actually meant to be quite sure how honest Harrison is being.

___

With your other theory:

Why does Marcus want to get rid of Harrison's people?

Is it because Harrison blew up the "archive"?

Why would Harrison blow up the archive if he thought his people were still alive?

Why would Marcus make Harrison think his people were dead if he hadn't tried to free them?

How would you communicate to the audience Harrison's attempt to smuggle his people away that fits into the plot? (Harrison is made to design weapons - Harrison tricks Marcus and secretly uses this as an opportunity to free his people - Spock tricks Harrison and exploits the fact that they were supposed to be torpedoes to disable the "Vengeance". That sort of thing.)

Why would Marcus put them in torpedoes if they weren't already in them? (There are easier ways to get rid of a room full of cryo tubes if you don't need them to go anywhere. He only gave the torpedoes to Kirk because Harrison had already put them there and since they couldn't be scanned then no more people had to know what was really in them. If he decided to put them in the torpedoes in response to Harrison blowing up the archives he could simply have blown up wherever the cryo tubes had been and claimed it was a second attack by Harrison.)

How would you communicate to the audience that Harrison knows or finds out about Marcus putting his people in the torpedoes?

If Khan knew that his people were in the torpedoes because Marcus put them there, how do you communicate Marcus' reasoning behind putting them in torpedoes? He was in charge of Section 31. He has no reason to smuggle them in such a convoluted fashion. Harrison did it that way because he was simply using the resources he had available. (Weapons.) Marcus has the whole of Section 31 and most of Starfleet at his disposal. If they weren't already in torpedo casings with a young, hot-headed starship commander ready to go take revenge on a terrorist-guy in Klingon territory he needn't have bothered disposing them in such a complicated ploy.

Marcus is a stupid man. That was established. (First he trusts Harrison to help him without being clever enough to escape, then he trusts Kirk not to listen to his Vulcan first officer.) He was paranoid bordering on the delusional so using the situation to his advantage in a risky fashion was in-character for him. Arbitrarily deciding to place cryo-tubes in torpedo casings is not.




It is an assumption. There are two possibilities: The propulsion fuel was detonated, or they put warheads in them.

The warheads would have to be really small to fit in there alongside the cryo tubes. And if the warheads for those torpedoes were really small, why would anyone approve a design that includes seven feet of completely empty space? Unless that space is where the warhead is meant to go. [Or the torpedoes are bigger on the inside.]

Kirk had just been attacked by Harrison and beamed across from the other ship, with no knowledge of Spock's plan. What is he going to do, work out immediately what Spock did or prompt another character to reveal to the audience what the plan was?
I guess you're right. I would just like to know what Khan planned to do with the torpedoes after he put his people in them. I can't think of anyway that scenario ends with out Khan being the prime suspect in the missing cryo tubes and his plan being discovered.
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