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  #41  
Old 05-29-2013, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin View Post
I don't think Marcus knew that Khan's men were in those torpedoes. I think that was part of Khan's plan. He tells Kirk to open the torpedoes, and later says he is the one who placed those people in there. I think he anticipated the tactics the admiral would use, both against himself and to start the war with the Klingons. The only part I don't get was how he planned to safely get them out of there.
No... When Kirk confronts Marcus about it, Marcus mentions that he'd hoped Kirk would just have followed orders and never find out what was in the torpedoes.

Harrison at this point knew that Marcus had discovered his people and thought Marcus had killed them all.

He only finds out that this is not the case when Sulu states very explicitly in his threat how many torpedoes there were. Up until that point he had no idea what Marcus had done to his people.

Harrison did put the cryo tubes in the torpedoes, because he knew the shielding would prevent them from being discovered too easily. Presumably he hoped to stage some testing of the torpedoes and steal the vessel that carried them and escape to safety.

That plan changed when Marcus discovered the bodies inside the torpedoes.
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  #42  
Old 05-29-2013, 03:49 PM
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I don't think that's it. When Kirk confronts Marcus, he does so by revealing that he knows Khan's identity. Marcus demands that Kirk hand over Khan. Kirk didn't mention the torpedoes, and neither did Marcus in his demands. I don't think Marcus knows Kirk has all 72 of them. I think Khan outsmarted him.

I think Khan may have put his men in those torpedoes to hide them from Marcus.

I think I need to watch this again
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  #43  
Old 05-29-2013, 05:05 PM
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The whole premise of hiding them in the torpedoes is dumb. The old Khan's smarter than that!
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  #44  
Old 05-29-2013, 05:08 PM
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How come Khan was allowed to wander around London without so much as tracking device planted somewhere inside his body so he could be easily located and beamed to a secure location at a moments notice. Was he not being watched at all? Section 31 must be lazy in this timeline.
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  #45  
Old 05-29-2013, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin View Post
I don't think that's it. When Kirk confronts Marcus, he does so by revealing that he knows Khan's identity. Marcus demands that Kirk hand over Khan. Kirk didn't mention the torpedoes, and neither did Marcus in his demands. I don't think Marcus knows Kirk has all 72 of them. I think Khan outsmarted him.

I think Khan may have put his men in those torpedoes to hide them from Marcus.

I think I need to watch this again
I just got back from watching it a second time and Admiral Marcus definatly knows Khan's crew is in those torpedoes. He was trying to eliminate 73 birds with 72 stones.

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Originally Posted by DNA-1842 View Post
He ordered Kirk to fire them at Harrison knowing that there were no warheads in them, relying on the explosions from the excess fuel in them to be enough to kill Harrison and draw the attention of the Klingons.
The warheads on those torpedoes were armed. I'm pretty sure it was the fuel/propulsion system that was unclear which is why Scotty wanted the specs.

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Originally Posted by DNA-1842 View Post
No... When Kirk confronts Marcus about it, Marcus mentions that he'd hoped Kirk would just have followed orders and never find out what was in the torpedoes.

Harrison at this point knew that Marcus had discovered his people and thought Marcus had killed them all.

He only finds out that this is not the case when Sulu states very explicitly in his threat how many torpedoes there were. Up until that point he had no idea what Marcus had done to his people.
You're correct that Khan specifically says Admiral Marcus found out about him hiding his crew in the torpedoes and he specifically says to Kirk "I assumed Admiral Marcus killed my crew." Why did Khan make that assumption? That is a pretty big assumption to go on a murderous revenge spree with out any evidence to back it up. Shouldn't Khan have verified what happen to his crew first?

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Originally Posted by DNA-1842 View Post
Harrison did put the cryo tubes in the torpedoes, because he knew the shielding would prevent them from being discovered too easily. Presumably he hoped to stage some testing of the torpedoes and steal the vessel that carried them and escape to safety.

That plan changed when Marcus discovered the bodies inside the torpedoes.
Now your left to make assumptions because the writers didn't really give us good reason for "why the torpedoes?"

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The whole premise of hiding them in the torpedoes is dumb. The old Khan's smarter than that!
It seems weird to me as well. How did Khan put all 72 of his crew in to those torpedoes? How did he even have access to them?

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Originally Posted by omegaman View Post
How come Khan was allowed to wander around London without so much as tracking device planted somewhere inside his body so he could be easily located and beamed to a secure location at a moments notice. Was he not being watched at all? Section 31 must be lazy in this timeline.
I agree, Section 31 and Admiral Marcus are starting to look pretty stupid.
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  #46  
Old 05-30-2013, 12:49 AM
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Last night a friend of mine, a guy who is not into Star Trek and mainly watches mainstream movies, said that the new Star Trek movie basically does not have a story at all (I did not steer the discussion onto Trek, we talked about movies in general).

So when even folks who are not really into particularly artistic and intelligent movies but rather mainstream cinema say that the movie did not have a story there has to be something wrong with the writing. I guess it is only some Trek fans who defend this clusterfu*k as they are familiar with the ingredients and as they want the story to make sense.
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  #47  
Old 05-30-2013, 01:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin View Post
I don't think that's it. When Kirk confronts Marcus, he does so by revealing that he knows Khan's identity. Marcus demands that Kirk hand over Khan. Kirk didn't mention the torpedoes, and neither did Marcus in his demands. I don't think Marcus knows Kirk has all 72 of them. I think Khan outsmarted him.

I think Khan may have put his men in those torpedoes to hide them from Marcus.

I think I need to watch this again
No, they talk about the torpedoes as well.

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Originally Posted by omegaman View Post
How come Khan was allowed to wander around London without so much as tracking device planted somewhere inside his body so he could be easily located and beamed to a secure location at a moments notice. Was he not being watched at all? Section 31 must be lazy in this timeline.
I think it was pretty clear that he was supposed to have outsmarted them at this point.

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I just got back from watching it a second time and Admiral Marcus definitely knows Khan's crew is in those torpedoes. He was trying to eliminate 73 birds with 72 stones.
Yes, thank you.


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The warheads on those torpedoes were armed. I'm pretty sure it was the fuel/propulsion system that was unclear which is why Scotty wanted the specs.
No, they had an arming system in place, but you remember that McCoy triggered it and all that happened was that it opened up. Carol Marcus tried a last ditch attempt to tear out the thingy that she was hoping to carefully compromise to disarm it. The fact that it didn't blow up was purely because it didn't have a warhead.

Scotty said he was worried about the "fuel". But you don't just need fuel for the propulsion, you need fuel for the warhead too. For any sort of reaction, you need fuel.

A photon torpedo has matter/antimatter fuel, that causes a sub-atomic reaction which converts the fuel to energy.

I gather that in a photon torpedo the matter/antimatter that is used for the warhead is also used for propulsion. Thus Scotty's assertion that he needs to know what kind of fuel it uses definitely refers to either/both the propulsion fuel or the explosive fuel.

The fact that he couldn't determine anything about what was inside the warhead prompted him to ask about "fuel" generally rather than the warhead material specifically.

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Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain View Post
You're correct that Khan specifically says Admiral Marcus found out about him hiding his crew in the torpedoes and he specifically says to Kirk "I assumed Admiral Marcus killed my crew." Why did Khan make that assumption? That is a pretty big assumption to go on a murderous revenge spree with out any evidence to back it up. Shouldn't Khan have verified what happen to his crew first?
No, he said "I had every reason to think", not "assume". We are still not told why he had a reason to think that, but it is pretty clear at that point that he is being sincere. So Marcus presumably gave him a specific and convincing reason to think that they had been 'disposed of', so to speak.

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Now your left to make assumptions because the writers didn't really give us good reason for "why the torpedoes?"
We were given a very good reason for "why the torpedoes". They had been designed to be heavily shielded, stealth weapons. No one would be able to trace them, nor find out what was inside easily at all. Marcus worked it out because there were seventy-two cryo tubes that went missing and he knew of only one person who'd know of them and want to steal them.

His plan wasn't spelled out to us letter for letter, which is good because that means they were not assuming the audience was stupid.

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It seems weird to me as well. How did Khan put all 72 of his crew in to those torpedoes? How did he even have access to them?
Well, he was designing them for Marcus. Harrison was very clever and very strong, it seems, so it isn't a stretch to imagine that he put in a hard night's work after disabling the security. All he needed was for seventy two torpedo shells to be open, access to a transporter and knowledge of the location of the cryo tubes. But that's not the only way he could have done it.

He outsmarted them just like any main character can outsmart a building full of admirals.

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I agree, Section 31 and Admiral Marcus are starting to look pretty stupid.
That was kind of the point. They were needlessly desperate, with Marcus driving home his propaganda about the imminent war with the Klingons and whatnot.

Marcus was willing to risk everything for an advantage over the Klingons, and in doing so he unleashed one of the most dangerous criminals in history. Accidentally, of course, but once he had given Harrison a reason to think that his people (Marcus' insurance) were dead it was a no-brainer that Harrison would break free of any hold Marcus had on him and take his revenge. Being so clever and all he had probably worked out a revenge plan well before Marcus 'betrayed' him.
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  #48  
Old 05-30-2013, 04:49 AM
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Originally Posted by DNA-1842 View Post
We were given a very good reason for "why the torpedoes". They had been designed to be heavily shielded, stealth weapons. No one would be able to trace them, nor find out what was inside easily at all. Marcus worked it out because there were seventy-two cryo tubes that went missing and he knew of only one person who'd know of them and want to steal them.

His plan wasn't spelled out to us letter for letter, which is good because that means they were not assuming the audience was stupid.

Well, he was designing them for Marcus. Harrison was very clever and very strong, it seems, so it isn't a stretch to imagine that he put in a hard night's work after disabling the security. All he needed was for seventy two torpedo shells to be open, access to a transporter and knowledge of the location of the cryo tubes. But that's not the only way he could have done it.

He outsmarted them just like any main character can outsmart a building full of admirals.
The only reason Khan was doing anything for Admiral Marcus was because Admiral Marcus was using Khan's crew as a bargaining chip, correct? Are you trying to tell me Admiral Marcus didn't go to great lengths to keep those cryo tubes secure from Khan? Khan worked for approximately a year for Admiral Marcus. I have to assume it was because it took Khan that long to come up with a way to get his crew, otherwise why would he continue to work? If Khan had access to a transporter why beam his crew in to torpedoes and not anywhere else where he could revive them and go from there? It seems pretty obvious to me that moving 72 cryo tubes from one location to another would be detected fairly quickly.

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I think it was pretty clear that he was supposed to have outsmarted them at this point.
If by "outsmarted" you mean escaped, ok. I think at that point Admiral Marcus figured out 72 cryo tubes weren't where they were supposed to be, so Khan's original plan had failed and he "had every reason to think" that his crew was dead. That is why he had already put his new plan in motion by sending Mickey (Rose's boyfriend) who works for Starfleet/Section 31 into the "archive" to blow it up.

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Originally Posted by DNA-1842 View Post
No, he said "I had every reason to think", not "assume". We are still not told why he had a reason to think that, but it is pretty clear at that point that he is being sincere. So Marcus presumably gave him a specific and convincing reason to think that they had been 'disposed of', so to speak.
Ok, I could have sworn Khan says at some point to Kirk "I assumed." Regardless I would have liked to have known why he "had every reason to think" as obviously the torpedoes with his crew in them still existed.

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No, they had an arming system in place, but you remember that McCoy triggered it and all that happened was that it opened up. Carol Marcus tried a last ditch attempt to tear out the thingy that she was hoping to carefully compromise to disarm it. The fact that it didn't blow up was purely because it didn't have a warhead.

Scotty said he was worried about the "fuel". But you don't just need fuel for the propulsion, you need fuel for the warhead too. For any sort of reaction, you need fuel.

A photon torpedo has matter/antimatter fuel, that causes a sub-atomic reaction which converts the fuel to energy.

I gather that in a photon torpedo the matter/antimatter that is used for the warhead is also used for propulsion. Thus Scotty's assertion that he needs to know what kind of fuel it uses definitely refers to either/both the propulsion fuel or the explosive fuel.

The fact that he couldn't determine anything about what was inside the warhead prompted him to ask about "fuel" generally rather than the warhead material specifically.
This is a minor thing in comparison to the stuff above but Carol Marcus does say to Kirk in the shuttle scene that the warheads are active which is why she comes up with the plan to take one to the planetoid and figure things out there. If they weren't active how did they go off onboard the Vengeance?

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I think curing 'death' is frankly a bit of a melodramatic exaggeration at this point. It's debatable just how dead Kirk was (it's not like he was buried twenty years when they tried it. Medically, people can technically die and be revived even today so it's not exactly likely to be different in the 23rd Century.
I don't know. That tribble was pretty dead from the way McCoy described it. I know a tribble is a simpler life form than a humanoid but still. I honestly don't think the writers thought threw the implications of Khan's magic blood.
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  #49  
Old 05-30-2013, 05:33 AM
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The only reason Khan was doing anything for Admiral Marcus was because Admiral Marcus was using Khan's crew as a bargaining chip, correct? Are you trying to tell me Admiral Marcus didn't go to great lengths to keep those cryo tubes secure from Khan? Khan worked for approximately a year for Admiral Marcus. I have to assume it was because it took Khan that long to come up with a way to get his crew, otherwise why would he continue to work? If Khan had access to a transporter why beam his crew in to torpedoes and not anywhere else where he could revive them and go from there? It seems pretty obvious to me that moving 72 cryo tubes from one location to another would be detected fairly quickly.
It took him a year to plan. But the fact that he actually managed to get his people into the cryo tubes indicates that either he smuggled them there very slowly, one at a time, and absolutely no one checked the secure location they were being held in - OR he managed to enact his plan in one swift motion.

Given how clever he's meant to be, the security must have been pretty good, because he got caught trying to smuggle his people away.


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If by "outsmarted" you mean escaped, ok. I think at that point Admiral Marcus figured out 72 cryo tubes weren't where they were supposed to be, so Khan's original plan had failed and he "had every reason to think" that his crew was dead. That is why he had already put his new plan in motion by sending Mickey (Rose's boyfriend) who works for Starfleet/Section 31 into the "archive" to blow it up.
Basically:

Harrison is awoken by Marcus;

Marcus holds his people as hostages to force Harrison to work for him;

Harrison educates himself about 23rd century technology, and begrudgingly designs weapons and stuff for Marcus;

Secretly, Harrison plots to sneak his people away;

This plot includes designing a torpedo with a casing that would be perfect for smuggling the cryo tubes away undetected;

Harrison risks discovery by enacting the first part of the plan;

Harrison is discovered, and is led to believe that Marcus has killed his people, but manages to escape and evade Section 31's clutches;

Marcus remains silent about the escape of this dangerous man, as this operation is top secret and involves illegal weapons and possible warmongering;

Harrison wreaks revenge by exploiting his knowledge of the workforce of Section 31 to force Mickey Smith's great-great-great-grandson to blow up the weapons development facility that he worked at;

Marcus goes public with the knowledge of "John Harrison", but lies about what really happened;

Harrison attempts to kill Marcus and cripple Starfleet, killing Captain Pike;

James T Kirk offers to take revenge on Harrison, Marcus uses this blind rage to his advantage and gives Kirk the torpedoes in the hope that Kirk will be rash and simply fire them, and that the explosion from the propulsion fuel of 72 torpedoes would be enough to kill Harrison and destroy any traceable evidence of Khan's people;

(He also ensures that the Enterprise is crippled in Klingon space, so that they would definitely be caught, and war would start);

James T Kirk listens to his friends;

Sulu informs Harrison that they have 72 torpedoes aimed at him;

Harrison surrenders, realising that Marcus had deceived him.


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Ok, I could have sworn Khan says at some point to Kirk "I assumed." Regardless I would have liked to have known why he "had every reason to think" as obviously the torpedoes with his crew in them still existed.
I'd like to know that as well, but that would have slowed the story down.

They could put that into a tie-in comic.

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This is a minor thing in comparison to the stuff above but Carol Marcus does say to Kirk in the shuttle scene that the warheads are active which is why she comes up with the plan to take one to the planetoid and figure things out there. If they weren't active how did they go off onboard the Vengeance?
They think there is an active warhead in there at first because the device says it's active. The shielding prevented them from knowing what was inside.

When they were beamed to the Vengeance, the cryo tubes had been removed and replaced with warheads from the Enterprise's own arsenal.
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  #50  
Old 05-30-2013, 06:20 AM
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I think from what I recall DNA's summation mostly fits.

I think I'll maybe try and catch the film again before it leaves theatres.

But again, I don't think the blood aspect is necessarily a cure all for death itself. It's basic cryonics that buys Bones enough time to save Kirk. He gets radiation poisoning and 'dies'. A short time later he gets cryonically frozen after his 'death' and then appears to get a synthesised blood transfusion based on Khan's platelets. That's really just a fancy transfusion to get the irradiated blood out of him. Plus he was unconscous for two weeks. Not like he got a magic touch on the shoulder. Also the Tribble had necrotic tissue - that 's like gangrene on a human. Gangrene can be removed from a living body. So, I may need to catch the film again to see how 'dead' the Tribble was.

Beverly Crusher awoke three dead people who had been frozen cryogenically for three hundred years, revived them and cured them but she still couldn't save everyone else she dealt with.
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