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  #21  
Old 05-28-2013, 06:29 AM
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I have to admit it has been a long time since I have seen "Space Seed" so that clears up several things. I'm confused though, are these films made or not made for Star Trek fans? I don't mind that these guys revisited Khan but they did claim the whole point of ST2009 was to eliminate ST cannon to allow them to come up with new stories. Now here they're relaying on people's prior knowledge of old stories from the series and films. If anything hopefully this will make people want to see "Space Seed" and that will lead them to better Trek. I feel like these writers only realized their stupidity after it was pointed out to them online and that is why they were trying to fix the mistakes they made in ST2009 like Kirk becoming captain way to quickly, transwarp beaming, etc. in this film. I can almost guarantee that these writers didn't actual think threw how the discovery of transwarp beaming would effect the universe they created. I mean a broken down shuttle transporter was able to achieve transwarp beaming, could you image what a full blown working starship transporter could do? Oh right, transporters only work when the writers want them to and otherwise don't when the writers want to do something that doesn't make sense when you have transporters. Seriously the transporters in STID are the most unreliable piece of starship equipment in this universe. Anyway they've made another pretty big mistake if you ask me in this one by basically curing death. Like I said here, I half expect to see Khan in the next film in some sort of status chamber with his blood being harvested. Again I don't think these writers think concepts threw all that much. They seem to care more about what is visually on the screen vs. things making sense which is why there are so many holes in these two films.
It's possible they didn't think through transwarp beaming but at this point it doesn't seem likely that everyone in Starfleet knows about it. They've thought it through enough to have had it secreted off to Section 31 (where it's no surprise it's been adapted and polished) rather than appear to be everyday conversation.

Right now, it's a military secret. It may or may not remain that way. Like Genesis.

Similarly, maybe some things in the film are being intentionally seeded for future stories (Khan not being killed off)..........we don't know yet. I think curing 'death' is frankly a bit of a melodramatic exaggeration at this point. It's debatable just how dead Kirk was (it's not like he was buried twenty years when they tried it. Medically, people can technically die and be revived even today so it's not exactly likely to be different in the 23rd Century.

But when it comes to the alternate universe then while specific future events have been eliminated it doesn't mean that every single thing is different. It depends maybe how you view the alternate. I don't view it as a place where it's all 100% different, but where similar things and people may still occur. They're not foraging out into completely original material yet and that's a legitimate question.
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Last edited by kevin : 05-28-2013 at 06:32 AM.
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  #22  
Old 05-28-2013, 07:00 AM
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One way around it is a complete reversal of the Prime Directive.

According to the big PD, the advanced society of the Federation is not supposed to interfere in the natural evolution/development of lesser tech species/societies.

By definition, Khan and co. come from an era is that technologically (and socio-politically) less developed than that of the 23rd century. Who's to say that someone in the Federation will look at taking Khan's blood to revive Kirk was not a violation of the Prime Directive in reverse? That an element of a lesser developed society has interfered in the natural flow of life for a member of an advanced society. If that be the case said person tries to make, and said case wins over the courts, then Khan's blood or other regenerative capabilities could be considered off-limits for the Federation era.

There. Death is back in play.
Kirk violated the prime directive to save the people of Nibiru. Though I think Kirk and crew thought the only violation was the fact that the Enterprise was seen by the Nibiru people and not the fact that they saved them in the first place. If that was the case why not "hide" the ship in orbit instead of the ocean? Anyway, I can't see Kirk and crew allowing millions of people to suffer that could be cured with out a fight. I find that justification hard to swallow. My guess is we won't be hearing about Khan's blood again because it was just a not well thought out plot device to resurrect Krik.

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As for the transwarp beaming....well...again, someone in Federation legal and ethics may look at that device, and state some kind of legalese/ethical dilemma on the uses of such a device, again gaining the ear of the courts...especially considering that the recently uncovered Section 31 (in the form of Khan) made such a devious use of the device after causing tremendous tragedy. Transwarp beaming could also be made illegal, and Scott's transwarp beaming theory be confiscated from Section 31, destroyed, never to be recovered.

There. Now we have use for starships again.

Fair enough, but all you really need is the equation and I can't see Starfleet erasing that outright. Scotty or his sidekick never wrote it down? If these writers need another easy fix plot device they will go back to it just like they did in this film.

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It's possible they didn't think through transwarp beaming but at this point it doesn't seem likely that everyone in Starfleet knows about it. They've thought it through enough to have had it secreted off to Section 31 (where it's no surprise it's been adapted and polished) rather than appear to be everyday conversation.

Right now, it's a military secret. It may or may not remain that way. Like Genesis.
Like I said I can almost guarantee that they didn't think transwarp beaming threw. It was a plot device to get Kirk back on to the Enterprise after meeting Spock in one of the most convoluted ways possible. They used it again in this film which is why they had to come up with an explanation why everyone isn't using it.

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Similarly, maybe some things in the film are being intentionally seeded for future stories (Khan not being killed off)..........we don't know yet. I think curing 'death' is frankly a bit of a melodramatic exaggeration at this point. It's debatable just how dead Kirk was (it's not like he was buried twenty years when they tried it. Medically, people can technically die and be revived even today so it's not exactly likely to be different in the 23rd Century.
Fair enough, but then it wipes out suffering from disease and cures near death experiences. I guess that sort of falls in line with Roddenberry's vision though.

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But when it comes to the alternate universe then while specific future events have been eliminated it doesn't mean that every single thing is different. It depends maybe how you view the alternate. I don't view it as a place where it's all 100% different, but where similar things and people may still occur. They're not foraging out into completely original material yet and that's a legitimate question.
I get that and I'm ok with that. However that's why I would have liked a bit more of an explanation of Khan's back story. As it is now you have to assume things played out pretty much like in "Space Seed" but you don't actually know. I'm sure that back story would have also helped those that know nothing about ST as well. Didn't they Section 31 was created by Admiral Marcus? If that's the case then the events with Section 31 in Enterprise obviously didn't happen.
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  #23  
Old 05-28-2013, 07:05 AM
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No, Marcus does not say he personally created Section 31 but he does appear to have high level involvement (likely the latest in a line of past and future Admirals who will be attached to it) so I don't see anything in the film to remove ENT's mention of it.
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  #24  
Old 05-28-2013, 08:18 AM
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No, Marcus does not say he personally created Section 31 but he does appear to have high level involvement (likely the latest in a line of past and future Admirals who will be attached to it) so I don't see anything in the film to remove ENT's mention of it.
My apologies, I misinterpreted the line. I've only seen the film once and had to look it up but apparently the line goes something like "Section 31 is a secret branch of Starfleet created to protect the Federation from external threats by developing weapons." I assumed that Section 31's primary purpose in the prime universe was not to create weapons and that this version of Section 31 was created as a result of the events of ST2009 because of that. I guess I read in to it to much.
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  #25  
Old 05-28-2013, 10:41 AM
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Well, Section 31 at various times has been shown to have it's fingers in a few pies (and certainly in one incarnation was able to genetically engineer the virus that would kill an entire species if allowed to) so I wouldn't find it a stretch to imagine that they also are or become involved in specialised weapons as well.

However, one possibility could be that in the wake of the destruction of Vulcan (and as part of Marcus's plan to militarize and more aggressively defend the Federation from it's percieved threats that Section 31 was in part refocused to spend more of it's time - at that stage - in weaponising technology (such as the transwarp equation) and developing newer ones as well. Before the London cover site was bombed one of the torpedo's which later carries Khan's crew is visible suggesting it was perhaps developed there). There's probably not a lot of additional corruption that Section 31 would require given what it already seems to do and it operates under the authority of no-one but itself (notwithstanding the Admirals who know of it's existence).

So, the events of 'Star Trek' could have (and in fact would have undoubtedly) had an impact on Section 31's activities and operations.
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  #26  
Old 05-28-2013, 11:35 AM
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Well, Section 31 at various times has been shown to have it's fingers in a few pies (and certainly in one incarnation was able to genetically engineer the virus that would kill an entire species if allowed to) so I wouldn't find it a stretch to imagine that they also are or become involved in specialised weapons as well.

However, one possibility could be that in the wake of the destruction of Vulcan (and as part of Marcus's plan to militarize and more aggressively defend the Federation from it's percieved threats that Section 31 was in part refocused to spend more of it's time - at that stage - in weaponising technology (such as the transwarp equation) and developing newer ones as well. Before the London cover site was bombed one of the torpedo's which later carries Khan's crew is visible suggesting it was perhaps developed there). There's probably not a lot of additional corruption that Section 31 would require given what it already seems to do and it operates under the authority of no-one but itself (notwithstanding the Admirals who know of it's existence).

So, the events of 'Star Trek' could have (and in fact would have undoubtedly) had an impact on Section 31's activities and operations.
Ok. Regarding the long range torpedoes why wouldn't they turn over the specs to Scotty? Section 31/Starfleet weren't aware Khan's crew was hidden inside them, correct?
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Old 05-28-2013, 11:52 AM
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I believe so. Now, I can't recall what Marcus said about the torpedo's when he briefed Kirk and Spock about them in his office but if they were essentially secret equipment he may not have wanted non approved officers knowing too much about their operation. He wanted the ship to use them on a covert assassination strike in enemy territory, he didn't need the people on the ship to know their innards.

That's without being able to remember what exactly was said about them. But they were pretty much meant to be top secret tech and Scotty I think basically was not in a 'need to know' position. Despite being Chief Engineer. The secrecy around them is after all, supposedly why Carol Marcus forged her way aboard to find out what was special about them.
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  #28  
Old 05-28-2013, 12:35 PM
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I believe so. Now, I can't recall what Marcus said about the torpedo's when he briefed Kirk and Spock about them in his office but if they were essentially secret equipment he may not have wanted non approved officers knowing too much about their operation. He wanted the ship to use them on a covert assassination strike in enemy territory, he didn't need the people on the ship to know their innards.

That's without being able to remember what exactly was said about them. But they were pretty much meant to be top secret tech and Scotty I think basically was not in a 'need to know' position. Despite being Chief Engineer. The secrecy around them is after all, supposedly why Carol Marcus forged her way aboard to find out what was special about them.
I can't remember 100% either. I assume Khan thought Starfleet may use the "long range" torpedoes he was designing when he went to Qo'noS, no? How else was he planning to get his crew back? What I don't understand is why Khan would risk the lives of his crew then by leaving active warheads in those torpedoes. Or did he remove the warheads and then Admiral Marcus discovered what was going on and put the warheads back in them to kill 73 birds with one stone? If Admiral Marcus didn't know how those torpedoes worked it was pretty negligent of him to ship them to the Enterprise. Did Admiral Marcus not consider Khan may betray him? Also the warp core crapped out just outside the Klingon neutral zone, did we ever find out why? Was that just an unfortunate accident or was that sabotage?
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  #29  
Old 05-28-2013, 01:17 PM
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I think events around Q'ono'S are where parts of the plan by Marcus (as I think I understand it at least!) potentially give way to some good old fashioned Star Trek style fuzzy logic, because whose plan it all was seems open to debate.

But yes, the ship's engines didn't just conveniently crap out - they were sabotaged because Marcus planned to sacrifice the Enterprise and her crew in order to trick the Klingons into open war. It's to trap the ship (as Khan suggests to Kirk in the brig) whilst he also (I think) eliminates Khan as well. Whether that was by someone who was onboard at the time, or whether it was before they left Earth is not known. They're a silent assassin somewhere.

I think it's partly important to remember that (again per my reading) Kirk's decision to apprehend Harrison/Khan instead of following his orders to execute him without arrest is what fouls up what 'should' have happened. My memory makes me think that Marcus is trying to kill two birds with one stone based on what a variety of characters say and do. However, I've not seen the film enough times to remember everything about the plan that was supposed to have been explained onscreen.

Though I think there are several unanswered questions about said plans even accounting for what's in the film.

Marcus sends the ship in supposedly to carry out something akin to an drone strike on enemy territory to take out a supposed enemy of the Federation, and no-one else would know anything about it. However, he also intends to sabotage the ship and use it as a sacrifice to his plans because he'll get the Klingons to destroy her. But he'll use what seems like the cruel destruction of an innocent stricken Federation ship by Klingons as his excuse for war. Neither Khan nor the Klingons ever know they've been played against the other by Marcus and the only people who might be able to expose him (the Enterprise) will all be dead.

I imagine Marcus knew how the torpedo's worked but didn't know Khan's people were inside (though that for me is one of the fuzzy parts. How did Khan get them all in torpedo's without Marcus knowing? I don't think the answer to that is in the film from memory) them. The only reason Khan even realised the truth is because Sulu sent him the warning message and he would have realised what torpedo's Marcus was using. Which means the torpedo's were not meant to have been used that soon. And the only reason that happened is because Kirk came to the decision that Spock's warning that the Admiral's plan was wrong from an ethical and moral standpoint was correct.

Which makes me ask myself a question about how Khan ended up on Q'ono'S after the attack on Starfleet but I would need to see the film again to see if it's covered by the film anywhere.
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  #30  
Old 05-28-2013, 01:25 PM
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I think events around Q'ono'S are where parts of the plan by Marcus (as I think I understand it at least!) potentially give way to some good old fashioned Star Trek style fuzzy logic, because whose plan it all was seems open to debate.

But yes, the ship's engines didn't just conveniently crap out - they were sabotaged because Marcus planned to sacrifice the Enterprise and her crew in order to trick the Klingons into open war. It's to trap the ship (as Khan suggests to Kirk in the brig) whilst he also (I think) eliminates Khan as well. Whether that was by someone who was onboard at the time, or whether it was before they left Earth is not known. They're a silent assassin somewhere.

I think it's partly important to remember that (again per my reading) Kirk's decision to apprehend Harrison/Khan instead of following his orders to execute him without arrest is what fouls up what 'should' have happened. My memory makes me think that Marcus is trying to kill two birds with one stone based on what a variety of characters say and do. However, I've not seen the film enough times to remember everything about the plan that was supposed to have been explained onscreen.

Though I think there are several unanswered questions about said plans even accounting for what's in the film.

Marcus sends the ship in supposedly to carry out something akin to an drone strike on enemy territory to take out a supposed enemy of the Federation, and no-one else would know anything about it. However, he also intends to sabotage the ship and use it as a sacrifice to his plans because he'll get the Klingons to destroy her. But he'll use what seems like the cruel destruction of an innocent stricken Federation ship by Klingons as his excuse for war. Neither Khan nor the Klingons ever know they've been played against the other by Marcus and the only people who might be able to expose him (the Enterprise) will all be dead.

I imagine Marcus knew how the torpedo's worked but didn't know Khan's people were inside (though that for me is one of the fuzzy parts. How did Khan get them all in torpedo's without Marcus knowing? I don't think the answer to that is in the film from memory) them. The only reason Khan even realised the truth is because Sulu sent him the warning message and he would have realised what torpedo's Marcus was using. Which means the torpedo's were not meant to have been used that soon. And the only reason that happened is because Kirk came to the decision that Spock's warning that the Admiral's plan was wrong from an ethical and moral standpoint was correct.

Which makes me ask myself a question about how Khan ended up on Q'ono'S after the attack on Starfleet but I would need to see the film again to see if it's covered by the film anywhere.
I'm going on one screenings memory but the "plan" seemed to have some pretty big holes in it. I do remember Khan used the transwarp beam out to get to Q'ono'S.
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