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  #11  
Old 05-21-2013, 08:34 AM
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Was "Cupcake" in this movie?
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  #12  
Old 05-21-2013, 08:51 AM
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Was "Cupcake" in this movie?
Yup.
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  #13  
Old 05-21-2013, 11:58 AM
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I saw it yesterday and if I remember correctly Admiral Marcus is the head of Starfleet who creates Section 31 to R&D new weapons as a direct result of the events of ST2009. Khan hides on Qo'noS after he attacks Starfleet headquarters. The Klingons engage Kirk and company when they go to apprehend Khan on Qo'noS.
Thanks for the info, EC. So Marcus is a hawkish Admiral who wants a war with the Klingons and wakens Khan and the other Augments to use them as a super-warriors.

Is there anything about this basically being a three player game (Romulans!) in it? Let's not forget that even the hawkish military folks from TUC just wanted to prelong the Cold War and not perish in a suicidal all out war (given roughly equal military strength, two players heavily fighting amongst each other is irrational when there is a third player involved as only he will benefit from it which is why hot wars among these three major Alpha/Beta Quadrant players are rare).
And what about humankind not willing to touch something even remotely resembling genetics (Bashir) let alone Augments or Khan himself throughout all of pre-Abrams Trek? Is Marcus not aware of who Khan was (why the f**k does Spock have to come in and lecture his younger self about something which should be in the history books of this universe?) and is all this human resentment towards genetics because of having overdone it in the fictional history of Trek which served as background for all previous stories that dealt with Augments simply absent? Or is it present and is Marcus actually portrayed as another Green, Kodos or Paxton, a bad guy who violates this genetics taboo?

Please correct me if I am wrong about these question concerning Marcus but my vague guess is that the answer is no. This crappy approach to Fed-Klingon-Romulan politics in addition to the Vengeance, a big, deadly ship in the hands of the villain(s), creates some pretty strong NEM vibes for me (but again please correct me if I am wrong about this as I might be more strongly driven by my old prediction that this will be another TWOK/NEM copy than actual facts).

I don't wanna judge a movie which I have not seen ... but as you indicated in the second part of your post not thinking your script through is definitely a big weakness of O&K and I am not willing to watch a Trek piece which touches grand issues like the Prime Directive and Augments in a braindead mode.
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  #14  
Old 05-21-2013, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
Thanks for the info, EC. So Marcus is a hawkish Admiral who wants a war with the Klingons and wakens Khan and the other Augments to use them as a super-warriors.

Is there anything about this basically being a three player game (Romulans!) in it? Let's not forget that even the hawkish military folks from TUC just wanted to prelong the Cold War and not perish in a suicidal all out war (given roughly equal military strength, two players heavily fighting amongst each other is irrational when there is a third player involved as only he will benefit from it which is why hot wars among these three major Alpha/Beta Quadrant players are rare).
And what about humankind not willing to touch something even remotely resembling genetics (Bashir) let alone Augments or Khan himself throughout all of pre-Abrams Trek? Is Marcus not aware of who Khan was (why the f**k does Spock have to come in and lecture his younger self about something which should be in the history books of this universe?) and is all this human resentment towards genetics because of having overdone it in the fictional history of Trek which served as background for all previous stories that dealt with Augments simply absent? Or is it present and is Marcus actually portrayed as another Green, Kodos or Paxton, a bad guy who violates this genetics taboo?

Please correct me if I am wrong about these question concerning Marcus but my vague guess is that the answer is no. This crappy approach to Fed-Klingon-Romulan politics in addition to the Vengeance, a big, deadly ship in the hands of the villain(s), creates some pretty strong NEM vibes for me (but again please correct me if I am wrong about this as I might be more strongly driven by my old prediction that this will be another TWOK/NEM copy than actual facts).

I don't wanna judge a movie which I have not seen ... but as you indicated in the second part of your post not thinking your script through is definitely a big weakness of O&K and I am not willing to watch a Trek piece which touches grand issues like the Prime Directive and Augments in a braindead mode.
You are asking far too complex questions for these movies to answer. They are pretty dumbed down straight forward explanations with several holes in them. Don't get me wrong, I much rather see more old Trek than this but I feel STID is better than ST2009.
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  #15  
Old 05-21-2013, 12:46 PM
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Some dumbing down while making Trek movies is inevitable. When Picard fought the Borg in FC they were not the collectivistic, insectoid, ideological enemies of the Federation anymore but rather a Cronenbergian kind of body horror. But at least Picard got to quote, albeit incorrectly, some Melville and we got the moral of his story.

But why use Khan or the Prime Directive or whatever in the first place if you don't wanna really use these great ingredients to cook something great out of it? Just because saying that truffles are in your meal is good for marketing? In NEM it was the opportunity of a grand TNGesque Romulan story, in ST09 it was the chance to show Vulcan-Romulan relations and in STID it was the chance to tell something new about the Prime Directive and Augments.
Why not simply be honest and shoot a straightforward action movie? A movie like TSFS never pretended to be more than it is, an epilogue to TWOK and a simple adventure story, and worked precisely because of this sincerity.
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  #16  
Old 05-23-2013, 03:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by horatio View Post
Thanks for the info, EC. So Marcus is a hawkish Admiral who wants a war with the Klingons and wakens Khan and the other Augments to use them as a super-warriors.

Is there anything about this basically being a three player game (Romulans!) in it? Let's not forget that even the hawkish military folks from TUC just wanted to prelong the Cold War and not perish in a suicidal all out war (given roughly equal military strength, two players heavily fighting amongst each other is irrational when there is a third player involved as only he will benefit from it which is why hot wars among these three major Alpha/Beta Quadrant players are rare).
And what about humankind not willing to touch something even remotely resembling genetics (Bashir) let alone Augments or Khan himself throughout all of pre-Abrams Trek? Is Marcus not aware of who Khan was (why the f**k does Spock have to come in and lecture his younger self about something which should be in the history books of this universe?) and is all this human resentment towards genetics because of having overdone it in the fictional history of Trek which served as background for all previous stories that dealt with Augments simply absent? Or is it present and is Marcus actually portrayed as another Green, Kodos or Paxton, a bad guy who violates this genetics taboo?

Please correct me if I am wrong about these question concerning Marcus but my vague guess is that the answer is no. This crappy approach to Fed-Klingon-Romulan politics in addition to the Vengeance, a big, deadly ship in the hands of the villain(s), creates some pretty strong NEM vibes for me (but again please correct me if I am wrong about this as I might be more strongly driven by my old prediction that this will be another TWOK/NEM copy than actual facts).

I don't wanna judge a movie which I have not seen ... but as you indicated in the second part of your post not thinking your script through is definitely a big weakness of O&K and I am not willing to watch a Trek piece which touches grand issues like the Prime Directive and Augments in a braindead mode.
I'd love to correct you Horatio, but I think your pretty much spot on with this. I think there was a lot of good will towards ST09, as a starting point it should have been a springboard for some great new Trek.
Alas, it is not. I'm just wondering what they are planning to 'redo' (badly) for the next one.
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  #17  
Old 05-23-2013, 04:30 AM
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The Braver, Better Movie That Star Trek Into Darkness Could Have Been A great review of where STID works and where it fails. It's like this women mind melded with me and put pretty much exactly how I feel about this film in to words.

Last edited by Enterprise Captain : 05-23-2013 at 04:51 AM.
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  #18  
Old 05-23-2013, 04:48 AM
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Within the general scheme of online fan critics believing they could always have done better the article in this case raises some interesting points about some of the weaknesses's of the film.

But I'm not convinced keeping Kirk dead would have been better purely because it would have been the natural assumption of fans that a film 3 would then be just 'The Search For Kirk' in some fashion (although I agree completely that Kirk's death is a well done and with a point to it inverse of TWOK and Spock. In fact, as ever the relationships of the characters and their paths remain more interesting than the other plot material).

However, I would have to disagree on the measure of audacity/brave-ness the previous films possessed in and of themselves. There has to be a point where general franchise shortcomings (and yes, ill thought out plot logic and holes are in play) are given their dues across the timelines.
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Last edited by kevin : 05-23-2013 at 10:45 AM. Reason: Still tinkering..........
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  #19  
Old 05-23-2013, 05:43 AM
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That was a question I asked myself as well (about using another of his crew - but at the end of the day that's just 'reality' giving way to dramatic sensibilities to allow Spock and Khan to face each other, it's not the first instance of it but in the absence of evidence Khan specifically was needed a fair point).

But the Kirk thing was fairly comprehensively foreshadowed so no, not a big surprise there. But not a leftfield turn either within the movie's events. I sort of prefer that he 'probably' wasn't 'dead' for too long before revival unlike in TSFS where it's unclear just how long has passed before they decide to go back to Genesis for Spock - even though the end scenes clearly indicate in TWOK what they were driving at.

I tend to agree in one sense though that long run fallout such as Vulcan would probably always suit a TV show better, however in the grand scheme of things even in real life when large magnitude events happen, life essentially continues it's own mundanity around it and not every event they'll experience afterwards will or must be linked to that event. It's not ignored in 'Star Trek Into Darkness' entirely. And as the Season 3 Xindi arc on 'Enterprise' shows, it's not a slam dunk treating it that way either.

EDIT - for some reason that seemed to post ahead of the intended order.
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Last edited by kevin : 05-23-2013 at 10:42 AM. Reason: Basic tinkering really.
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  #20  
Old 05-23-2013, 05:44 AM
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But I'm not convinced keeping Kirk dead would have been better purely because it would have been the natural assumption of fans that a film 3 would then be just 'The Search For Kirk' in some fashion (although I agrer completely that Kirk's death is a well done and with a point to it inverse of TWOK and Spock. In fact, as ever the relationships of the characters and their paths remain more interesting than the other plot matetial).
I loved the scene but what pulled me out of it was that I knew they were going to use Khan's blood to bring him back. On a side note why couldn't they have just used the blood of one of the 72 augments they had onboard? You could see Kirk's resurrection coming from a mile away. I agree that leaving him dead in this film would have lead to fans assuming the next film will be "The Search for Kirk" but that's why killing Kirk and leaving him dead would have been a very bold move and would have made that scene that much more powerful. Though we would have to wait for the next one with out Kirk to find out he wasn't coming back. I honestly thought in ST2009 that the destruction of Vulcan was going to be reset some how and I was pleasantly surprised when that didn't happen. Unfortunately the after effects of that event from the perspective of the Vulcan people can't really be explored in these films and that exploration would be more suited to a TV series.
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