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  #11  
Old 05-16-2013, 12:48 PM
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With all the rumours out there I really wasn't surprised he was Khan.
What did surprise me was how many parts of the movie were near carbon copies of other Treks, not just Kirks fake-out death, but Bones 'performing surgery' on the torpedo, Scotty sabotaging a ship pursuing the Enterprise. There's loads more in there. Lots of things I kind of anticipated turned up some form or another, false flag operations to start a war etc,
But all those nods and winks to things that happened before are lost on movie goers, and just annoy the hell out of me. Where's the new stories a rebooted universe could give us.
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  #12  
Old 05-16-2013, 12:53 PM
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And Spocks KHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAN is just on a par with Vaders NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHH. Lame. Only one version of this that'll ever work.
KHhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaan
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  #13  
Old 05-16-2013, 01:26 PM
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Things I liked/didn't like:
The action was good, to be fair. And even though Inception beat them to it, been thrown around the Ent was the most realistic we've seen it done, not just putting the camera off angle and jerking it.

Pikes death really pulled at the heart strings for me, kudos to Bruce Greenwood, but why did Spock get all creepy with that mind meld.?Real Spock would have more respect than to violate him like that, especially since he was so serene and at terms with his mortality in the opening scene. It wasn't even to help Pike emotionally, it was just be voyeuristic in the extreme. It made me feel uneasy.

I liked CB, I know people have issues with the change of race, but that wasn't it for me, I was just waiting for more, something I can't put my finger on. Khan just didn't seem to come through for me, and what an anti-climax!

Spock and Uhura's constant whinening and bickering. Leave it in the bedroom. Don't bring it to the bridge, and certainly not on an extremely dangerous away mission in the heartland of enemy territory.

I really liked what they did with Scotty, he's far more serious in this, even if some is played for laughs. When he resigned, that really got me.
Can't say the same for Bones though. He's just a narky old man now, with none of the charm and soul the original had. And a penchant for running blood tests through dead tribbles? 23rd century medicine is a bit more advanced than that.

Interstellar transporters, why bother with starships any more?

Sulu got his moment in the limelight, and Chekov managed to survive his stint in a red shirt.

Carol Marcus got her kit off, as if that's supposed to be something good.

Too much swearing, that just felt awkward and stilted to me.

Those are the immediate things.

What did you guys think.
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  #14  
Old 05-17-2013, 06:34 AM
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perosnally i loved kirks deathscene and the small appearance of leanord nimoy. giving the new spock an edge on khan. gave a really nice alternate way to handle khan without the events that occured in the prime timeline.

and it worked. the movie was brilliant.
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Old 05-17-2013, 02:12 PM
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Gotta agree with you for the most part Thestartrekker, summarises most of my opinions quite nicely. Although I quite enjoyed the Spock/Uhura bickering.

Gotta say I didn't like the Kirk death scene that much, was necessary to give Spock his rage but the line lifting ruined it for me and sucked out any emotion that would have been there. Loved the engine core thing though, a lot better than the funny shaft that Spock had to fix in WOK (not that it mattered in that film as that entire sequence is amazing and quite the tear jerker).
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Old 05-25-2013, 07:31 PM
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Have to say I liked the movie… but, they didn't need to have Khan at all.
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  #17  
Old 05-27-2013, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by horatio View Post
Ah, involuntary parody. This is hardly surprising, the Galaxy Quest factor already impacted the previous movie. I guess this is bound to happen when you hire the most unoriginal writers in the quadrant.
I agree, involuntary parody. They also made Nero yell "Spock! Spock!." in a "Khaaaaaaaaaaaan!" like fashion in ST2009. The original "Khan!" yell is something that can not be replicated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalLonestarX View Post
perosnally i loved kirks deathscene and the small appearance of leanord nimoy. giving the new spock an edge on khan. gave a really nice alternate way to handle khan without the events that occured in the prime timeline.

and it worked. the movie was brilliant.
Agree, I also loved the reversal of the Spock and Kirk death scene. I thought it was one of the stronger scenes in the film as it is well acted. The reused dialog worked here except for the Khan yell. They should of have left it out like they did the "I have been and always shall be, your friend" line. That line didn't belong as these guys are close but recent friends. The only thing that pulled me out of the scene was the fact you could see Kirk's resurrection coming from a mile away. Disagree with Nimoy's appearance. Nimoy turned down Generations because he felt Spock was just there for the sake of being there and his appearance didn't service the story. That was exactly what his appearance in STID was. He really gave the viewer no new information and it was just an excuse to have him in the film. Since it was in the film I feel it should have taken place in private and not on the bridge for everyone to see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thestartrekker View Post
Pikes death really pulled at the heart strings for me, kudos to Bruce Greenwood, but why did Spock get all creepy with that mind meld.?Real Spock would have more respect than to violate him like that, especially since he was so serene and at terms with his mortality in the opening scene. It wasn't even to help Pike emotionally, it was just be voyeuristic in the extreme. It made me feel uneasy.
I sort of liked that scene. It's unclear if Spock said anything to him telepathically but Pike did seem pretty calm for someone who was dying. Perhaps Spock comforted him in some way so Pike wasn't alone. I'm 50/50 on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thestartrekker View Post
I liked CB, I know people have issues with the change of race, but that wasn't it for me, I was just waiting for more, something I can't put my finger on. Khan just didn't seem to come through for me, and what an anti-climax!
I feel the same way. I think he was underutilized as they didn't really give him much to play with. He's a decent actor and it seems like they just told him "Stand there and talk like you're evil." It didn't surprise me in anyway that he was Khan as the rumors were flying around for almost a year but he really didn't need to be. They could have just made him any augment and avoided all the unanswered details of his origin which they tried to explain in one line of the film. Funny they got a 300 year old frozen guy to design the biggest weapon in Starfleet history. Also it was pretty lucky they managed to unfreeze only Khan and not the rest of his crew. Was there a big "KHAN IS HERE" sign above his cyrotube? Just realized, I'm assuming they launched the Botany Bay in 1996 from my previous knowledge of ST but since they didn't explain the events that took place I actually don't know. Was the ship even called the Botany Bay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thestartrekker View Post
Spock and Uhura's constant whinening and bickering. Leave it in the bedroom. Don't bring it to the bridge, and certainly not on an extremely dangerous away mission in the heartland of enemy territory.
I agree. It was extremely unprofessional of two senior officers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thestartrekker View Post
I really liked what they did with Scotty, he's far more serious in this, even if some is played for laughs. When he resigned, that really got me.
Again I agree. I didn't like his still useless (need to sell the kids another action figure) sidekick though. Why did he also resign when Scotty did and then Scotty left his butt on Earth when he went to find the Vengeance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thestartrekker View Post
Can't say the same for Bones though. He's just a narky old man now, with none of the charm and soul the original had. And a penchant for running blood tests through dead tribbles? 23rd century medicine is a bit more advanced than that.
They have reduced Bones to a catchphrase spewing cartoon character pretty much. Though Urban does a great job with it he is severely underused as a character.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thestartrekker View Post
Interstellar transporters, why bother with starships any more?
Exactly. Just another example of these writers not thinking things threw. They just pretty much eliminated death in this last film.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thestartrekker View Post
Carol Marcus got her kit off, as if that's supposed to be something good.
A pointless scene that at least Lindelof owned up to.
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  #18  
Old 05-27-2013, 12:40 PM
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Inbetween watching the film a second time I also went back and specifically rewatched 'Space Seed' and for anyone who remembers it's content there are some things which could explain some events in the film, and which could be construed as using the white space of the TV episode as the formation of the film.

Since the film is kind of like the alternate version of 'Space Seed' fused with TWOK anyway.

The first interesting point comes in respect of Marcus awakening Khan. In 'Space Seed', when the Botany Bay is found and boarded it's Khan's cryostasis chamber that begins to reactivate him automatically. As Marla McGivers noted, sometimes the leader of a ship was set to revive first to assess their situation. It would be perfectly reasonable to assume something similar may have happened when Khan was found by Marcus.

Either that, or Marcus somehow knew enough to know who he was.

Once Khan is aboard the ship Bones scans him and notes that 'something within him refuses to let him die'. That's never quite specifically explained but something in his blood perhaps? This could be writers exploiting vagueness in TOS. Something perhaps unique to Khan over the generic supermen with him. We'll likely never know for sure.

On the face of it, using him to design weapons by exploiting his natural talents seems odd, but then in 'Space Seed' Khan himself says 'I used to be an engineer' and expresses immediate interest in reading up on the ship's systems and technology. He also seems to figure out enough of how the ship works to allow him to take control of it and threaten the crew. So, he's in some ways a demonstrably quick study. Later 2D thinking notwithstanding.

Now, for sure that's not in the film (does it absolutely need to be - I guess people will differ on that) but since the writers will be assuming fans will be familiar with 'Space Seed' there would be no need to say that over again I think.

Transwarp beaming is probably being over-highlighted. It's still essentially a secret from Starfleet in general as they whipped it from Scotty and promptly Marcus gave it to Section 31 to play with. If it wasn't for Khan needing to steal it to escape Earth it isn't likely that Section 31 would make it widely known they have such a toy. In and of itself it's a bit of a convenient piece of tech to move people around but so were dimensional transporters between Universes in DS9 and transwarp conduits in VOY.
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  #19  
Old 05-28-2013, 04:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin View Post
Inbetween watching the film a second time I also went back and specifically rewatched 'Space Seed' and for anyone who remembers it's content there are some things which could explain some events in the film, and which could be construed as using the white space of the TV episode as the formation of the film.

Since the film is kind of like the alternate version of 'Space Seed' fused with TWOK anyway.

The first interesting point comes in respect of Marcus awakening Khan. In 'Space Seed', when the Botany Bay is found and boarded it's Khan's cryostasis chamber that begins to reactivate him automatically. As Marla McGivers noted, sometimes the leader of a ship was set to revive first to assess their situation. It would be perfectly reasonable to assume something similar may have happened when Khan was found by Marcus.

Either that, or Marcus somehow knew enough to know who he was.

Once Khan is aboard the ship Bones scans him and notes that 'something within him refuses to let him die'. That's never quite specifically explained but something in his blood perhaps? This could be writers exploiting vagueness in TOS. Something perhaps unique to Khan over the generic supermen with him. We'll likely never know for sure.

On the face of it, using him to design weapons by exploiting his natural talents seems odd, but then in 'Space Seed' Khan himself says 'I used to be an engineer' and expresses immediate interest in reading up on the ship's systems and technology. He also seems to figure out enough of how the ship works to allow him to take control of it and threaten the crew. So, he's in some ways a demonstrably quick study. Later 2D thinking notwithstanding.

Now, for sure that's not in the film (does it absolutely need to be - I guess people will differ on that) but since the writers will be assuming fans will be familiar with 'Space Seed' there would be no need to say that over again I think.

Transwarp beaming is probably being over-highlighted. It's still essentially a secret from Starfleet in general as they whipped it from Scotty and promptly Marcus gave it to Section 31 to play with. If it wasn't for Khan needing to steal it to escape Earth it isn't likely that Section 31 would make it widely known they have such a toy. In and of itself it's a bit of a convenient piece of tech to move people around but so were dimensional transporters between Universes in DS9 and transwarp conduits in VOY.
I have to admit it has been a long time since I have seen "Space Seed" so that clears up several things. I'm confused though, are these films made or not made for Star Trek fans? I don't mind that these guys revisited Khan but they did claim the whole point of ST2009 was to eliminate ST cannon to allow them to come up with new stories. Now here they're relaying on people's prior knowledge of old stories from the series and films. If anything hopefully this will make people want to see "Space Seed" and that will lead them to better Trek. I feel like these writers only realized their stupidity after it was pointed out to them online and that is why they were trying to fix the mistakes they made in ST2009 like Kirk becoming captain way to quickly, transwarp beaming, etc. in this film. I can almost guarantee that these writers didn't actual think threw how the discovery of transwarp beaming would effect the universe they created. I mean a broken down shuttle transporter was able to achieve transwarp beaming, could you image what a full blown working starship transporter could do? Oh right, transporters only work when the writers want them to and otherwise don't when the writers want to do something that doesn't make sense when you have transporters. Seriously the transporters in STID are the most unreliable piece of starship equipment in this universe. Anyway they've made another pretty big mistake if you ask me in this one by basically curing death. Like I said here, I half expect to see Khan in the next film in some sort of status chamber with his blood being harvested. Again I don't think these writers think concepts threw all that much. They seem to care more about what is visually on the screen vs. things making sense which is why there are so many holes in these two films.
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  #20  
Old 05-28-2013, 05:24 AM
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One way around it is a complete reversal of the Prime Directive.

According to the big PD, the advanced society of the Federation is not supposed to interfere in the natural evolution/development of lesser tech species/societies.

By definition, Khan and co. come from an era is that technologically (and socio-politically) less developed than that of the 23rd century. Who's to say that someone in the Federation will look at taking Khan's blood to revive Kirk was not a violation of the Prime Directive in reverse? That an element of a lesser developed society has interfered in the natural flow of life for a member of an advanced society. If that be the case said person tries to make, and said case wins over the courts, then Khan's blood or other regenerative capabilities could be considered off-limits for the Federation era.

There. Death is back in play.

As for the transwarp beaming....well...again, someone in Federation legal and ethics may look at that device, and state some kind of legalese/ethical dilemma on the uses of such a device, again gaining the ear of the courts...especially considering that the recently uncovered Section 31 (in the form of Khan) made such a devious use of the device after causing tremendous tragedy. Transwarp beaming could also be made illegal, and Scott's transwarp beaming theory be confiscated from Section 31, destroyed, never to be recovered.

There. Now we have use for starships again.
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