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  #61  
Old 01-28-2013, 11:45 AM
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horatio horatio is offline
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Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain View Post
I doubt it will tank and I don't wish it to do badly. I actually hope that Abrams will direct the third Trek film so he can complete his trilogy. There is room for both types of Trek. I personally prefer the old to the new.
I agree. Let me shortly elaborate on why your old vs. new point makes sense and why the "there have always been shi*ty Trek stories" points cloud the real issue.

First of all, that STXI is consciously designed to appeal to a wider audience is simply a fact. Check Paramount's business strategy, check the folks they hired and it becomes impossible to deny this. The folks who do it nonetheless are simply lying.
Second, of course people can claim that the script of STXI is great and thus imply that everything about the movie is perfect (obviously it is visually fantastic and the acting is very good). Surely a bit of an extreme opinion but nonetheless a valid one.
But I think the crucial stuff is not foreground stuff like the quality of the plot but the background.* Naturally it is hardly surprising that people who don't care about the background atmosphere of Trek, who don't want Trek to be, to paraphrase you, more than just random entertainment, don't notice or mind the absence of this feature. To them it is an arbitrary ingredient whereas to us it is not merely a quintessential ingredient but the very canvas without which Trek cannot sustain itself. To me this seems to be the core of the issue that is reflected in this eternal discussion about STXI.

* - Of course the foreground is not totally irrelevant, only folks who like classical sci-fi stories realize that STXI isn't one. This is reflected e.g. in the preferences concerning the two TOS pilots. One is a decent sci-fi story, one is a more cowboyesque story about a megalomaniac dude.

Last edited by horatio : 01-28-2013 at 11:52 AM.
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  #62  
Old 01-28-2013, 11:54 AM
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We don't deny it, in fact I have brought up myself many times the need for the reboot to cast a wide net.

What I realize, is that Ster Trek TMP and it's sequels were originally intended to cast just as wide a net.

And I realize just fine what it was meant to be, and why it works is that it succeeds brilliantly in being what it set out to be.

A movie like Insurrection on the other hand, set out to be a movie with a message, and it did not succeed in achieving that vision.
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  #63  
Old 01-28-2013, 11:58 AM
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If following the rule of law already constitutes a message we are in deep sh*t.
Seriously, you neatly illustrated my point. People who like the background stuff of Trek like e.g. the Federation being a decent organization and so on are more likely to appreciate a movie like INS whereas folks who do not care about what I would call the Trek spirit don't mind its absence in a movie like STXI (IMO FC best captured this spirit not incidentally via music but that's just a sidenote.). And I say this without any judgment, it is a mere description of what I consider the most important difference among Trek fans.

Last edited by horatio : 01-28-2013 at 12:01 PM.
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  #64  
Old 01-28-2013, 12:03 PM
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I don't think there's anyone left here who isn't aware of the fact the last film was part of a conscious effort to widen the appeal of Star Trek. In the absence of specific names everyone here seems in agreement on that..................it seems widely accepted.

Nor am I aware of anyone here who actually has the film as their number 1 favourite of the whole series. I don't have it there. So, I'm not sure why we're still on the simplistic notion that liking the thing equals loving everything and it being the best still get propagated. It's seems about the hundredth time this has come up.

Insurrection is just a badly written movie, irrespective of mystical 'spirit' elements. For what it aims for. The Abrams film is written for an entirely different purpose and for it's purpose works better. That's not to say Insurrection is without potential (or was without potential) but at the end of the day it didn't quite work.
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Last edited by kevin : 01-28-2013 at 12:07 PM.
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  #65  
Old 01-28-2013, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
If following the rule of law already constitutes a message we are in deep sh*t.
Seriously, you neatly illustrated my point. People who like the background stuff of Trek like e.g. the Federation being a decent organization and so on are more likely to appreciate a movie like INS whereas folks who do not care about what I would call the Trek spirit don't mind its absence in a movie like STXI (IMO FC best captured this spirit not incidentally via music but that's just a sidenote.). And I say this without any judgment, it is a mere description of what I consider the most important difference among Trek fans.

I don't think that's it at all.

Insurrection fails in part because it doesn't have the courage to fully explore it's own premise. They have this idea, that there is an element in the Federation that is willing to turn their back on their ideals in return for the scientific gain that can be taken from this planet at the expense of it's people. That's a pretty interesting premise. But they waste it completely.

Look at how the movie unfolds, the solution is presented that Enterprise just has to get into communication range out of the Bryar patch, and why, because once they talk to the REAL FEDERATION everything will be fine. It's weak, it's a cop out.

Even the Dougherty character eventually has his "coming to Jesus" moment where he stands up for his Federation ideals.

The movie didn't have the courage to explore the premise of a Federation that may not always do the right thing.

It's a hollow, weak story.
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  #66  
Old 01-28-2013, 12:10 PM
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First of all, the story of INS is totally in line with TNG. It's the old Picard vs. the evil Admiral story but with more phaser fire than in a television story.

Anyway, our preferences concerning INS and STXI reflect, as I already showed, deeper preferences concerning the core values of Trek.
In these times of hunting down whisteblowers I am quite happy that there is a movie like INS in the oeuvre of Trek. You guys are more happy with a post 9/11 movie about some evil Romulan terrorist. This is fine, we are not Borg and need such differences in Trek fandom. But let's be honest about them.

Last edited by horatio : 01-28-2013 at 12:13 PM.
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  #67  
Old 01-28-2013, 12:11 PM
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It has nothing to do with the morals, as I just explained. It's the horrid execution. The basic idea behind Insurrection could have lead to a great film. It's just that it didn't.
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  #68  
Old 01-28-2013, 12:18 PM
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You mind that we did not see more of the rottenness of the Federation. Well, sorry, but that's how TNG worked!
In a dramatic context it is fairly natural to illustrate structural issues via a character. In Hamlet it were Polonius and Claudius that embodied the rottenness of Denmark, in TNG it is Satie, Nechayev (to a minor degree, she is obviously not a criminal but nonetheless an ideological opponent of Picard) or Dougherty that show the problems of the Federation or, to express it more poetically, the fragility of paradise, how you have to constantly struggle to maintain it.
Same in DS9. There as no Section 31 except via its dramatic representation in the form of the character of Sloane.

As you argue for the original Heart of Darkness like idea behind INS, even in Apocalypse Now our own evil had been personalized in Kurtz and it is fairly easy to watch the movie and pretend that this guy has nothing to do with our society, that he is a just a soldier gone crazy in the jungle.

Last edited by horatio : 01-28-2013 at 12:23 PM.
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  #69  
Old 01-28-2013, 12:20 PM
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I would have been happier with a story that really looked at the notion of forced relocation of a small group for potentially greater good. At the ethics and morals that perhaps it can be justified vs the notion it never is in a manner that would let the viewer decide rather than be told.
That isn't quite how it went.

Of course it's also hard to argue for Insurrection when the main villain descends into someone just out to get back at his people for being kicked out for misbehaviour. One can't complain about Nero when the primary villain of something like INS is as thinly motivated and executed. And his cohort is a weak Admiral.
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Last edited by kevin : 01-28-2013 at 12:27 PM.
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  #70  
Old 01-28-2013, 12:24 PM
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Poor scripts will always invoke negative reactions and rightly so. Its more apparent in todays market with the studios preferring to knock something together and raise some quick cash.
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