[horatio]

We all stand on the shoulders of giants. Khan was intelligent but out of his time so I doubt that he would have been able to become politically powerful once again.

[martok2112]

Originally Posted by horatio

We all stand on the shoulders of giants. Khan was intelligent but out of his time so I doubt that he would have been able to become politically powerful once again.

Hmmm...if he found the right "hearts and minds" to win over....

[kevin]

He could start by looking for individuals who 'need' what he can offer them and have them join in return.

But even with Genesis he would need a lot of leverage to be able to challenge the Federation.

[martok2112]

He had the one device, but I don't think he had the plans or materials to mass produce the device, thanks to the sacrifices made by the Regula I crew. And if had detonated the device to rid himself of Kirk, then he wouldn't have been able to "reverse engineer" the only device he had at his disposal to try and mass produce from there.

If he defeated Kirk without using the Genesis device, then he could try to reverse engineer it (and he is a quick study), seek out the means to mass produce it, and then he would be a terror for the whole galaxy to reckon with. He could basically destroy a planet's population because the Genesis device reconfigures the target world "in favor of its new matrix" (as Spock pointed out). The Klingons saw this too. An ultimate weapon that could wipe out the indigenous population (be they native or colonial) and make the world suitable for whatever life the user chose to implant on that world.

Granted, Klingons and humans could conceivably live on the same planet, but conditions for one race might not be very comfortable for the other. The Genesis device can be programmed to replicate the conditions for the race that intended to use it.

Or, in Khan's case, that which he could not conquer, he could destroy, without forethought of "environmental conditions". Or, he could even program the Genesis device to be a true weapon of destruction, and render the target world uninhabitable, perhaps irreparably so.

[horatio]

a

Originally Posted by martok2112

Hmmm...if he found the right "hearts and minds" to win over....

He convinced one pus*y-driven woman and that was about it. I doubt that many people in the 23rd century would follow a megalomanic tyran. Why should they, the Federation provides peace nd prosperity.

I doubt that Khan and his augments would get along well in the 23rd century. Sure, they are smart but when you jump 200 years into the future you have to catch up on quite some things and even an Augment cannot learn warp drive in a day. Even a skilled fellow needs some hours to be able to drive a car.

[martok2112]

I don't think all is quite as happy happy joy joy perfect in the Federation as many would imagine. Gene Roddenberry may have deemed it so, but obviously, the writers and producers he hired thought differently.

However, given the parameters you set forth, Horatio...let's entertain another idea:

What if Khan and the Botany Bay were not discovered by Kirk in his time, but were later discovered by Picard's Enterprise? (Or, more ideally and realistically because of its size, the Defiant?...let's run with the Defiant) As we know, things definitely aren't happy happy joy joy perfect in the Federation at that time. You have the Maquis, who are dealing with their strifes with the Federation and Cardassians.

In addition to being a tyrant, Khan also had to somewhat be a politician. In order to amass his armies back in the 90's, he had to win the hearts and minds of those who chose to follow him. If Khan was able to study the political situation of the Alpha Quadrant at that time, learn the plight of the Maquis, and the internal threat they posed to the stability of the Federation's influence in the AQ, he could begin his machinations to win the hearts and minds of the Maquis. He brings the Maquis a prize....The Defiant, after he's captured it, and claims to be one of them (assuming that just about everyone in the Maquis is ignorant of history, and fails to recognize Khan Noonien Singh...again, big assumption, but logic and physics are going out the window for my premise). The Maquis are overjoyed. (There is precedent....Thomas Riker tried to steal the Defiant for the Maquis once before....and failed. Khan with his genetic supermen could succeed...even against the likes of warrior Worf.) Now, the Defiant is in their hands. They even look up to Khan a bit for his success in having captured the prize they tried for before. Khan reveals his Maquis-friendly plans (saying nothing of his overall goals). The goal is simple at first...to run the Cardies out of the worlds that the Feds had ceded to them. Once that's done (and done efficiently under Khan's supervision), Khan convinces the Maquis that the Federation will not stop with this. He fills their heads with ideas that the Federation has ultimately failed them, and now that they've completely uprooted the plans of the Federation at this point, the Feds will hunt them down like dogs. The only choice is to stand and fight. He mentions guerilla tactics that the Maquis had not considered before. The Maquis are still a fairly moral people though, despite their standing apart from the Federation, so he must tread cautiously, keeping their hearts and minds.

He leads them into piracy. After he's amassed and converted enough of a fleet of cargo transporters into combat worthy vessels, he starts his piratical focus onto smaller capital ships. Scouts, destroyers, science vessels, and even smaller cruisers like the Miranda class. Starfleet is desperately trying to hunt down this pirate force which is suborning their ships and impressing their crews. Meanwhile, Khan's Maquis forces, supplemented by his genetic supermen, continue to build up their fleet, slowly but surely.

Ugh...I'd write more but I have to get ready for a gig.

[Captain Tom Coughlin]

A couple of points,

You only need one Genesis devise to act as a deterrent, the tradeoff being leave us alone or billions of your people are going to die in the blink of an eye. You put it on a small ship out in space, nobody knows where, and that is your deterrent.

Secondly, we know they can adapt to the 23rd century. They were able to commandeer two ships, operate them, and even fix them when they sustained battle damage. They can adapt and learn quickly in any environment

[omegaman]

Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin

A couple of points,

You only need one Genesis devise to act as a deterrent, the tradeoff being leave us alone or billions of your people are going to die in the blink of an eye. You put it on a small ship out in space, nobody knows where, and that is your deterrent.

Secondly, we know they can adapt to the 23rd century. They were able to commandeer two ships, operate them, and even fix them when they sustained battle damage. They can adapt and learn quickly in any environment

Certainly can!

[Captain Tom Coughlin]

Let alone adapt to living on a world that would have killed just about anyone!

[horatio]

Originally Posted by martok2112

I don't think all is quite as happy happy joy joy perfect in the Federation as many would imagine. Gene Roddenberry may have deemed it so, but obviously, the writers and producers he hired thought differently.

However, given the parameters you set forth, Horatio...let's entertain another idea:

What if Khan and the Botany Bay were not discovered by Kirk in his time, but were later discovered by Picard's Enterprise? (Or, more ideally and realistically because of its size, the Defiant?...let's run with the Defiant) As we know, things definitely aren't happy happy joy joy perfect in the Federation at that time. You have the Maquis, who are dealing with their strifes with the Federation and Cardassians.

In addition to being a tyrant, Khan also had to somewhat be a politician. In order to amass his armies back in the 90's, he had to win the hearts and minds of those who chose to follow him. If Khan was able to study the political situation of the Alpha Quadrant at that time, learn the plight of the Maquis, and the internal threat they posed to the stability of the Federation's influence in the AQ, he could begin his machinations to win the hearts and minds of the Maquis. He brings the Maquis a prize....The Defiant, after he's captured it, and claims to be one of them (assuming that just about everyone in the Maquis is ignorant of history, and fails to recognize Khan Noonien Singh...again, big assumption, but logic and physics are going out the window for my premise). The Maquis are overjoyed. (There is precedent....Thomas Riker tried to steal the Defiant for the Maquis once before....and failed. Khan with his genetic supermen could succeed...even against the likes of warrior Worf.) Now, the Defiant is in their hands. They even look up to Khan a bit for his success in having captured the prize they tried for before. Khan reveals his Maquis-friendly plans (saying nothing of his overall goals). The goal is simple at first...to run the Cardies out of the worlds that the Feds had ceded to them. Once that's done (and done efficiently under Khan's supervision), Khan convinces the Maquis that the Federation will not stop with this. He fills their heads with ideas that the Federation has ultimately failed them, and now that they've completely uprooted the plans of the Federation at this point, the Feds will hunt them down like dogs. The only choice is to stand and fight. He mentions guerilla tactics that the Maquis had not considered before. The Maquis are still a fairly moral people though, despite their standing apart from the Federation, so he must tread cautiously, keeping their hearts and minds.

He leads them into piracy. After he's amassed and converted enough of a fleet of cargo transporters into combat worthy vessels, he starts his piratical focus onto smaller capital ships. Scouts, destroyers, science vessels, and even smaller cruisers like the Miranda class. Starfleet is desperately trying to hunt down this pirate force which is suborning their ships and impressing their crews. Meanwhile, Khan's Maquis forces, supplemented by his genetic supermen, continue to build up their fleet, slowly but surely.

Ugh...I'd write more but I have to get ready for a gig.

I clearly missed this aspect and totally agree. The Federation isn't happy club ("Journey to Babel") and Khan could exploit major discontent like the one in the 24th century after the 'peace for land' treaty with the Cardassians. Especially with a ship and a weapon of mass destruction. As you said, the Maquis are decent people who just don't wanna leave their homes and tolerate Cardassian mistreatment but I doubt that they are too selective about allies.