The Official Star Trek Movie Forum

The Official Star Trek Movie Forum > Star Trek > General Star Trek Discussions > The End of Trek
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 07-31-2012, 12:22 PM
horatio's Avatar
horatio horatio is offline
Fleet Admiral
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 9,282
Default

Cardassian sunrises, Archer's beagle and numerous other fanwank with the label reboot on it does not constitute the radical cut I argue for. You perceive ST09 as a sufficient change because it ended the "Berman has been at the helm too long" staleness, i.e. the problem is solved, whereas I care about the question of how much serialization, how much denseness the franchise needs. In other words, the reasons are not the same. Gee, not even the problem is the same, it's apples and oranges.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-31-2012, 12:24 PM
Captain Tom Coughlin's Avatar
Captain Tom Coughlin Captain Tom Coughlin is offline
Fleet Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USS Meadowlands
Posts: 10,990
Default

But this isn't about '09. You've always maintained that Trek didn't need a reboot of any kind. That's always been your position. You've fought that topic tooth and nail here.
__________________


Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin : 07-31-2012 at 12:29 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-31-2012, 12:32 PM
horatio's Avatar
horatio horatio is offline
Fleet Admiral
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 9,282
Default

Depends on what reboot means. It can mean redoing old characters like it is done right now and it can mean starting from scratch and doing a BSG-style Trek. I still think about these two like I did before, I am indifferent about them.

If it means doing another Next Gen and repeating the magic of making your open universe denser then I do think that there is some merit in it although I am admittedly not sure whether some kind of static balance like in ENT and ST09 might not be superior.
As everybody wants serialized TV these days I seriously doubt that my idea will materialize but one has to point out that Trek has been good precisely when it built its cosmos, not when it swam in the void like in the beginning or in its own piss like in the end (which includes the present). OK, that is an exaggeration, of course Trek has been good during TOS and of course the cosmos has been beneficial after TNG but you get my point, the heydays are when you move from one to the other, i.e. middle TNG.

Last edited by horatio : 07-31-2012 at 12:36 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-31-2012, 12:33 PM
Captain Tom Coughlin's Avatar
Captain Tom Coughlin Captain Tom Coughlin is offline
Fleet Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USS Meadowlands
Posts: 10,990
Default

I'm not trying to give you a hard time here, it's just a noticeable change in your opinion. I'm sure I'm not the only one to notice it.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-31-2012, 12:34 PM
Captain Tom Coughlin's Avatar
Captain Tom Coughlin Captain Tom Coughlin is offline
Fleet Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USS Meadowlands
Posts: 10,990
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by horatio View Post
Depends on what reboot means. It can mean redoing old characters like it is done right now and it can mean starting from scratch and doing a BSG-style Trek. I still think about these two like I did before, I am indifferent about them.

If it means doing another Next Gen and repeating the magic of finding a dynamic balance between openness and denseness then I do think that there is some merit in it although I am admittedly not sure whether the static approach of ENT and ST09 might not be superior.
As everybody wants serialized TV these days I seriously doubt that my idea will materialize but one has to point out that Trek has been good precisely when it built its cosmos, not when it swam in the void like in the beginning or in its own piss like in the end (and like it still does).
I don't disagree with you here. As you know, my favorite TV Trek was always TNG, DS9 gets love from me too.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07-31-2012, 12:46 PM
horatio's Avatar
horatio horatio is offline
Fleet Admiral
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 9,282
Default

Discussions should be about taking off the gloves and giving each other a hard time to force each other to rethink our positions.

About DS9, I think that the perception of the series is interesting. Of course there is the majority who views it as slightly inferior to TNG but there are also people who absolutely love it and want Trek to be totally serialized again and there are folks who hate it because it is too grim or too tedious. One could on the one hand argue that it is better for a piece of art to be loved and hated than to be perceived as mediocre by everybody but one could also argue that it is not a coincidence that TOS and TNG are the most popular series.
Of course appeal to popularity is a slippery slope and subjectively I totally disagree with this majority opinion as TOS just features too many bad episodes for my taste but I also gotta admit that there is something powerful in the very setup of the show. Like TNG it is timeless and not a story which ends when Sisko goes home to the prophets, Janeway goes home to Earth or Archer, speaking hypothetically, defeats the Rommies and sets up the Federation. It can go on and on and on like a short story collection.
But then again I think in the next moment about a Trek "novel", another DS9 that runs for a season or longer.

So yeah, somehow I think that this question is the most basic one.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-31-2012, 12:52 PM
Captain Tom Coughlin's Avatar
Captain Tom Coughlin Captain Tom Coughlin is offline
Fleet Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USS Meadowlands
Posts: 10,990
Default

The question of serialization is an interesting one. On the one hand, it allows for depth. Serialization dominates the landscape right now in large part because it allows for such depth . But, that depth can come at a price. It can discourage new viewership from people who haven't been with you since the beginning. It's why I don't watch Fringe, even though it looks like something I would enjoy. I'll have to watch it from the beginning. And while it's on my to do list, I haven't gotten around to it.

I think that is the biggest challenge facing a new Trek series if they were to go the serialized route.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-31-2012, 01:07 PM
horatio's Avatar
horatio horatio is offline
Fleet Admiral
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 9,282
Default

Perhaps weak serialization would be a solution, i.e. you loosely connect your stories thematically such that it pays off to view them all but if you miss an episode you can still follow everything. Doctor Who works like this.
The disadvantage is of course that loose connections might be just too loose respectively that they trick you into irregularly watching but then realizing that you should have rather watch it all, something a clearly serialized series avoids via signaling to the audience that they have to persist (of course the series teases you to continue to watch but on a second level there is this clear 'your loyality will be rewarded with viewing pleasure so stay with us' order which makes you stick with it even if it sucks for some time).
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-31-2012, 01:37 PM
omegaman's Avatar
omegaman omegaman is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Penrith NSW Australia
Posts: 4,609
Default

I'm all for a short number of high quality episodes with a single dedicated theme taking us through the journey. Focus on either one captain, one ship or one villain.
__________________
TREK IS TREK. WHATEVER THE TIMELINE!

The next TV Series should be called STARFLEET!
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-31-2012, 04:41 PM
chator's Avatar
chator chator is offline
Commander
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,261
Default

The reason why the "golden era" of Trek is gone is because J.J. has taken a minimalist approach to doing Trek. Roddenberry's vision is gone, Trek is simply the property of Paramount. In this new period, Trek is whatever they say it is. Paramount and J.J. have capitalized on the iconography of Trek, so its symbolism has come to identify what Trek is rather than its storytelling. Gone is the undercurrent of social commentary, the moral conflicts of its characters, the attempt to dramatize philosophical viewpoints in a way that entertains while expanding awareness. What Abrams is giving us is a watered down version.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 07:53 PM.


Forum theme courtesy of Mark Lambert
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2009 by Paramount Pictures. STAR TREK and all related
marks and logos are trademarks of CBS Studios Inc. All Rights Reserved.