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View Poll Results: Will JJ's KHAN be as good as the original or better?
I think it will be as good as the original 8 80.00%
I think it will be better than the original 2 20.00%
Voters: 10. You may not vote on this poll

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  #91  
Old 06-16-2012, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by kevin View Post
Those changes do not make the scene credible. They make it worse. Much worse. That speech is terrible. It's absolutely the sort of thing that has me rolling my eyes in anything but appreciation. I don't feel particularly roused by dialogue like that most of the time, I'm afraid.

George's acceptance of his fate and his sacrifice for the rest of the crew is much more subtly and effectively done by having us simply see the events unfold. Using the techniques of cinema and simply having the visuals played alongside an effective score and Chris Hemsworth's performance everything that emotionally needs conveyed and communicated about George's decision is done so minus any silly or clunky speeches.

Sometimes, movie scenes just don't need words.
This is good. An opportunity for you to teach me something.
Did you find the bellow scenes terrible and worse for par?

----
Attention All Hands.
As you know we could out run the Klingon vessels, but we must protect the Enterprise C until she enters the temporal rift. And we must succeed. Let's make sure history never forgets the name ...Enterprise.


----
Your whisper from the dark has now become a plea. We cannot turn our backs...


----
I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me! A day may come when the courage of men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship. But it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the age of Men comes crashing down! But it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good Earth, I bid you stand! Men of the West!
----
You all know the mission and what is at stake. I have learned to trust each of you with my life.
-- but I have also heard murmurs of discontent. I share your concerns. We are trained for espionage; we would be legends, but the records are sealed. Glory in battle is not our way.Think of our heroes; the Silent Step, who defeated a nation with a single shot. Or the Ever Alert, who kept armies at bay with hidden facts.These giants do not seem to give us solace here, but they are not all that we are. Before the network, there was the fleet. Before diplomacy, here were soldiers! Our influence stopped the rachni, but before that we held the line! Our influence stopped the krogan, but before that, we held the line! Our influence will stop Saren; in the battle today,
we will hold the line!”
----

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATJaT8P6mSE

----
All of our lives, we have fought this war. Tonight I believe we can end it. Tonight is not an accident. There are no accidents. We have not come here by chance. I do not believe in chance. When I see three objectives, three captains, three ships. I do not see coincidence, I see providence. I see purpose. I believe it our fate to be here. It is our destiny. I believe this night holds for each and every one of us, the very meaning of our lives.

----
What if tomorrow the war could be over? Isn't that worth fighting for? Isn't that worth dying for?
----

Great moments... are born from great opportunity. And that's what you have here, tonight, boys. That's what you've earned here tonight. One game. If we played 'em ten times, they might win nine. But not this game. Not tonight. Tonight, we skate with them. Tonight, we stay with them. And we shut them down because we can! Tonight, WE are the greatest hockey team in the world. You were born to be hockey players. Every one of you. And you were meant to be here tonight. This is your time. Their time is done. It's over. I'm sick and tired of hearing about what a great hockey team the Soviets have. Screw 'em. This is your time. Now go out there and take it.

Why so many words...in these great moments? ...If they are not needed.
Why are these moments considered great and why don't they take away from their respective moments.
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  #92  
Old 06-16-2012, 05:42 PM
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In the reality of the situation the Kelvin faced, there was no time for emboldening speeches...by either Robau or Kirk. The most motivation Robau could provide was to Kirk on the way to the turbolift, and then at that, they were standing orders. Robau didn't know what they were about to face...how can you embolden someone against the unknown, especially when the unknown is clearly superior in tech and warfare to your own ship in every possible way? All you can do is give standing orders at that point. There was no help anywhere nearby, and none on the way. Robau knew it, and there was no sense in hiding that fact from his first officer, who naively thought otherwise until rebuked by Robau. At least Robau does not lie to his officers.

There was some time for a brief inspirational speech by Pike just before they left spacedock. "The maiden voyage of the Enterprise deserves more pomp and circumstance than we can afford right now. Her christening will just have to be a reward for our safe return."

And then by Kirk himself:
"Either they're going down, or we are."

Short, simple, and sweet.

I think the best inspirational speech I EVER heard was in StarGate SG-1, by O'Neill. "Anything inspirational you guys may have heard in your lives...now might be a good time to remember 'em."

The second best would be (and yes, this largely was a speech to embolden the good guys against the technologically superior unknown) from Independence Day, by the President.

And then, there's MY emboldening speech, which works for known and unknown situations:

"Anything I might say at this point can be taken with a grain of salt, or regarded as a load of hot air. I ain't gonna lie to you guys....we're probably gonna die. So until we win this thing, just disregard everything I've said at this point! Let's get out there and win this thing! If we do win....y'all can buy me a round! If we don't, well, you can get me in the afterlife!"

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  #93  
Old 06-16-2012, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by martok2112 View Post
In the reality of the situation the Kelvin faced, there was no time for emboldening speeches...by either Robau or Kirk. The most motivation Robau could provide was to Kirk on the way to the turbolift, and then at that, they were standing orders. Robau didn't know what they were about to face...how can you embolden someone against the unknown, especially when the unknown is clearly superior in tech and warfare to your own ship in every possible way? All you can do is give standing orders at that point. There was no help anywhere nearby, and none on the way. Robau knew it, and there was no sense in hiding that fact from his first officer, who naively thought otherwise until rebuked by Robau. At least Robau does not lie to his officers.

There was some time for a brief inspirational speech by Pike just before they left spacedock. "The maiden voyage of the Enterprise deserves more pomp and circumstance than we can afford right now. Her christening will just have to be a reward for our safe return."

And then by Kirk himself:
"Either they're going down, or we are."

Short, simple, and sweet.

I think the best inspirational speech I EVER heard was in StarGate SG-1, by O'Neill. "Anything inspirational you guys may have heard in your lives...now might be a good time to remember 'em."

The second best would be (and yes, this largely was a speech to embolden the good guys against the technologically superior unknown) from Independence Day, by the President.

And then, there's MY emboldening speech, which works for known and unknown situations:

"Anything I might say at this point can be taken with a grain of salt, or regarded as a load of hot air. I ain't gonna lie to you guys....we're probably gonna die. So until we win this thing, just disregard everything I've said at this point! Let's get out there and win this thing! If we do win....y'all can buy me a round! If we don't, well, you can get me in the afterlife!"

There was fifteen minutes. A small "speech" as you and Kevin say is the least you could expect from a officer and commander to his bridge. They knew they're enemy was superior and what he looked like. It wasn't unknown. I don't know how you made that assessment. I offered a few words and you two practically thew up. Why?

Yes...I know the Speech from Independence Day. I thought it was too corny to put on this list.

In less than an hour, aircraft from here will join others from around the world, and you will be launching the largest aerial battle in the history of mankind. Mankind. That word should have new meaning for all of us today. We can't be consumed by our petty differences anymore. We will be united in our common interests. Perhaps it's fate that today is the Fourth of July, and you will once again be fighting for our freedom. Not from tyranny, oppression, or persecution… but from annihilation. We're fighting for our right to live. To exist. And should we win the day, the Fourth of July will no longer be known as an American holiday, but as the day when the world declared in one voice: We will not go quietly into the night! We will not vanish without a fight! We're going to live on! We're going to survive! Today we celebrate our Independence Day!


Rhyming in a speech is more for humor than bravado.
The cliche of July 4 makes it worse. It turns it into a sensationalistic moment instead of a fortifying moment. Not bad just cliche'.

----
You agreed with Kevin that my "speech doesn't make the scene credible. A Captain abandons his post and hands himself over to the enemy to be executed. Without it the scene is incredible...beyond belief. Kevin doesn't explain why.

Kevin then says he doesn't appreciate such expressions in dialogue. Calling them silly and clunky. I can't imagine why he would regard motivational speech to silly or clunky as though if there were going to be a speech it must therefore be "silly" and "clunky." As humans our emotions and fear can take hold and stop us from acting...words have power and can effect change. I've always known that to be true. But you don't agree?

Further: You assume the position of the "speech" is in the rather coveted musical montage scene. In fact it's not. Martok, yours and Kevin's unanimous objections seems more like devotion than reasoning on what's needed logically and artistically.--

-----
There was something you said about being flawed.
It occurred to me that the error of the Kirk scene is that he isn't Captain. There is no reason why he shouldn't be Captain. It simplifies the scene and removes the need of the obtrusive and unrealistic Lamb Sacrifice by the current Kelvin Commander.

The Commander of the Kelvin is made to be absolutely impotent. Not by the enemy but by the useless waste of sacrificing himself without a fight. No self respecting military officer would make that choice. Plain and simple. I have enough Navy friends to prove that true. Heck if that isn't satisfactory ask AkulaSSN here on the board. And it's done just to make Kirk look the Hero.

This is one of those places that needs a middle ground because how it stands is too stupid to believe. This man is going to kill you but you do absolutely nothing to save your life and stall for more time for your family?
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  #94  
Old 06-16-2012, 11:03 PM
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I'm afraid that I don't know all of the excerpts of dialogue you list there but on paper some of them appear rather overwritten and waffle-filled, yes.

The one from 'Yesterday's Enterprise' is fine, though. It's short and sweet. The rest I would need some sense of why they are being made. And I like Picard's in 'The Drumhead'.

This could be a personal matter. I'm not and never have been the type of person to glow and get all warm and fuzzy at big powerful speeches about various things. Not that I can't be, of course - I'm not totally immune to such things. They are hard to make good and (perhaps ironically) I'm more a fan of 'the shorter the better'. It's a ship's bridge..........not a stage. I think it's because you're trying to square the circle of a scene that doesn't make sense to you that you're trying. I'm not trying to fix the scene because I think it plays fine as it is. A speech by Robau just doesn't fix this in the way you seem confident it does. Probably because you and I have different needs here.

And the Bill Pullman speech is also cringeworthy for me. I'd rather just get my head down and do whatever needs to be done and skip those parts.
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Last edited by kevin : 06-16-2012 at 11:27 PM.
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Old 06-16-2012, 11:39 PM
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I'm afraid that I don't know all of the excerpts of dialogue you list there but on paper some of them appear rather overwritten and waffle-filled, yes.

The one from 'Yesterday's Enterprise' is fine, though. It's short and sweet. The rest I would need some sense of why they are being made. And I like Picard's in 'The Drumhead'.

This could be a personal matter. I'm not and never have been the type of person to glow and get all warm and fuzzy at big powerful speeches about various things. Not that I can't be, of course - I'm not totally immune to such things. They are hard to make good and (perhaps ironically) I'm more a fan of 'the shorter the better'. It's a ship's bridge..........not a stage. I think it's because you're trying to square the circle of a scene that doesn't make sense to you that you're trying. I'm not trying to fix the scene because I think it plays fine as it is. A speech by Robau just doesn't fix this in the way you seem confident it does. Probably because you and I have different needs here.

And the Bill Pullman speech is also cringeworthy for me. I'd rather just get my head down and do whatever needs to be done and skip those parts.

I think anything stupid needs fixing, Kevin. That's just the way I am. That scene entertained you. (That's Great) but it was still senseless in every meaning of the word. And if I'm fighting your personal preferences then I'll stop now but I was hoping you could share some enlightenment on fixing the stupid, not maintaining it...within the bounds or the artistry of the cinematic scenes that you enjoyed.

I place those excerpts above because they are some rather famous pieces of dialouge in theire respective genre. I had a feeling Picards Yesterdays Enterprise would have your approval...just as Matrix' Mass Effect, Lord of the Rings, and Mircale on Ice have clout with their respective fans. Millions love these moments and I think for good reason.
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Old 06-16-2012, 11:54 PM
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My personal preferences are not offended. It might be a legitimate problem that my level of experience with 'Star Trek' has kind of immunised me to 'senseless' scenarios and what on the face of it might be actions that I wouldn't do myself or could be seen as bad ones.

I would allow that, but I just don't feel any of your suggestions make the scene better or invest it with more sense. I think Robau does what he can to try and balance the situation of his ship being held hostage, of trying to obtain answers to who has him and to also leave clear orders with the next in line if he doesn't return. It seems to be part of the recurring motif of Captain's being faced with the possibility of death and coming to accept that and their possible death in a no-win situation that Spock refers to in the early part of the film. All the Captains in the film face a moment where no way out seems achievable. I think that's intentional and it plays out differently for each man. Now, someone out there might have good and workable suggestions for modifying the scene or scenario in a way that improves it but they don't seem to be here.

So yeah, I think there's nowhere else to go with it until the next time you bring Robau up again.
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Last edited by kevin : 06-17-2012 at 12:19 AM.
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  #97  
Old 06-17-2012, 12:54 AM
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There's just no sense in this. It's gonna be more circular debating bull****, just like every other thing in Star Trek that doesn't please one fanboy or another.

I'm backing out. And it's not because I'm conceding anything, because I certainly am not....I'm just tired of trying to point out that this is just FANTASY!

And wow....really...the Independence Day speech? Cringeworthy? Wow....amazing how popular it was at the time the movie was out. I guess it just isn't cool to be ...oh, I dunno...AMERICAN anymore.
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Old 06-17-2012, 01:01 AM
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Oh please..........does everybody need babysat round here? It's a melodramatic speech in a silly film. But yes, by all means get all offended by it. I'm getting bored of this can't say a ****ing thing around Martok because he likes it.
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  #99  
Old 06-17-2012, 07:14 AM
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Sorry, Kev.
I should've been more clear in that my comment was not aimed at you.
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Old 06-17-2012, 07:19 AM
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In fact, I'll take back my comment, but not because of your condescension...but simply because I should've been the better man, and just laughed quietly.
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