[martok2112]

Originally Posted by horatio

I agree that viewing that attack of a Latino guy on a black guy as a racial issue is highly dubious and I am not a fan of hate crime laws. Of course the motivation of a crime should always be considered in a courtroom but there shouldn't be any extra laws.

Even though I said I'd back off...I have to say there have been some truly logical questions raised in the last little bit. I will try to view everything dispassionately, and with balance.

Horatio, I agree. If it can be left at that, it would be a proper trial. But I have the feeling that there is going to be subtle pressure from ACLU and other organizations, or people of racial influence to make it a case about race. I sincerely hope my feelings are wrong.

Enterprise Captain, I can say I completely agree with your question about the way Zimmerman went about this. If someone did act as provocatively as Zimmerman did, and then (IF) he was attacked, can he then claim "self-defense"? I completely agree. Zimmerman acted against advice from the dispatcher to not follow Martin. Zimmerman, according to the call he made to the dispatcher, already had it in his head that he was gonna "do something" about this, because of past acts by similarly dressed or similarly suspicious acting persons. In his eyes, he likely didn't see any kind of "good intentions" out of his quarry because of how Martin was dressed/acting. So, Zimmerman was already in "vigilante" mode. He apparently thought he was going to prevent a (in his mind) for sure crime. Simply by disregarding and then (somehow) approaching Martin, he can likely throw "self-defense" out the window.

It sounds to me like Zimmerman, who was following Martin around, finally got out of the vehicle, which prompted Martin to turn around and ask "Why are you following me?" If Zimmerman had stayed in his vehicle, likely Martin would NOT have turned around to ask that question.

As I understand it, the confrontation went something like this:
-Zimmerman, supposedly out in a personal errand in his SUV, sees a black man in a hoodie, walking in a gated (supposedly secured) retreat, holding his hands in suspicious manner near the front of his waist, which suggests to Zimmerman (in his apparent state of mind at the time) that the man is either armed, or carrying something he may have stolen. Zimmerman calls 911, describes the situation (as he perceives it). Dispatcher asks if he is following this guy. Zimmerman confirms. Dispatcher advises him to back off, and not follow...to wait for help from a police officer who is supposedly enroute. Zimmerman makes comments regarding his feelings on the matter: "%(#*%) punks. (%*##( assholes" He speaks of how he's sick and tired of seeing other people's houses get broken into, and seeing punks like this get away with it. He's clearly in "I'm gonna do something about it mode" at this point. (He makes some comments that the media would later distort into sounding racist, but audio forensics clears up that he did not make racist comments. Others relent their claims, saying that the wording is "unintelligible".)

-Martin, the person that Zimmerman has targeted, senses that someone in a vehicle is following him suspiciously. He calls his girlfriend on his cell phone (supposedly has an earpiece with which to more clearly hear his recipient). He tells her that he thinks he's being followed. Girlfriend advises him to run.

-According to the 911 call Zimmerman made (and this is dubious), Zimmerman claims that "he's running". From this point of view, it would seem then that Zimmerman gave chase, further disregarding the 911 dispatcher's advice.

-At some point, he either catches up to Martin, or Martin gives up running (if indeed he was running as Zimmerman claims). Question: Did Zimmerman get out of the vehicle then? Or was he still in the vehicle when Martin supposedly says: "Are you following me?" (This, heard over the cell phone call Martin made to his GF). A distant voice (Zimmerman's?) is heard, replying: "What are you doing here?" Then, shortly after that, Martin's earpiece apparently drops out of his ear, after what sounds like a shove, and then things go silent. She tries calling him back a few times, unsuccessfully. (Cell phone traffic records kept by the company that services her prove the times correctly.) To my knowledge, there is no sound of a car door being opened or closed...so I don't truly know how Zimmerman really approached Martin.

-Differing accounts, some eye witness, some ear-witness (and some possibly quite witless) give reports of a struggle, some shouting, some whining (not whimpy whining, but probably more like pleading...as in, for one's life) , seeing one man on top, and another on the ground being beaten. A gunshot is heard, and the man on the ground walks away. Some even tried to say there were two shots...but only one has been confirmed.
The big problem I had with the media handling of this was that the guy at NBC who put together an audio playback of Zimmerman's 911 call(s) did so with the apparent intention of painting Zimmerman (himself, of Hispanic descent) as a racist, or at the very least, a racial profiler. And, the media supposedly using outdated photos of both Martin and Zimmerman. The media loves to put an innocent face to a victim, and so they used baby-faced imagery of Martin (which was far from the image he presented of himself on his Facebook or Twitter pages...which is indeed much more gangsta oriented), and using an outdated photo of Zimmerman, making him look like some kind of dangerous, imposing man, or even a prison thug. It is just my perception, and certainly not in defense of either party.
Right now, there are so many other factors that I don't quite have time to look over and discuss, but I will end this particular post with the following:

I believe the wisest words came from Martin's mother, regarding this tragic affair.
She said something to the effect of: This whole thing was an accident. It was not an accident that Zimmerman shot Trayvon. It was an accident that they crossed paths. If that hadn't occurred, my son would be safe.

That is indeed something I can sympathize with.

[Enterprise Captain]

George Zimmerman raised $200,000 through website

George Zimmerman's attorney said his client's bail might have been set higher if a judge had known about $200,000 US raised by a website and that only came to light this week.
Mark O'Mara said on CNN's Anderson Cooper 360 that he only learned about the money Wednesday and will inform a judge at a hearing Friday.
Zimmerman, who has been charged with second-degree murder in the Feb. 26 shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, was released from jail this week after paying 10 percent of $150,000 bail.
The lawyer for Martin's parents, Benjamin Crump, said Friday he has asked the prosecutor in the case to request that the judge revoke Zimmerman's bail for not disclosing at the original bond hearing last week how much money he had.
"This is a bombshell that was dropped," Crump told The Associated Press. He said the parents, Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fulton, were "offended" that Zimmerman failed to inform the court of the money the website raised.
O'Mara told CNN late Thursday the money was raised by a website that Zimmerman set up for his legal defence.
Friday's hearing was initially scheduled to deal with several media organizations, including The Associated Press, asking the judge to unseal documents from Zimmerman's court file.
The website used to raise the money has since been shut down, but O'Mara said he'll likely start a new defence fund for Zimmerman.
O'Mara did not immediately return a phone message from The Associated Press.
The website was created almost two weeks ago by Zimmerman's family to thank his supporters and to receive donations from anyone who wanted to help with his legal defence.
The 44-day delay in Zimmerman's arrest spurred protests nationwide and inspired a national debate about racial profiling, equal justice under the law and Florida's self-defense law. Martin was black; Zimmerman's father is white and his mother is from Peru.
Zimmerman has gone into hiding since his release on bail. Under terms of his bond, he has to wear a GPS ankle bracelet that authorities can use to track his location round the clock.

[martok2112]

Hmmmm....
Ok....now don't take this as a defense of Zimmerman,as I speak of this in a more generalized coverage of any man or woman who tries to raise funds for their own defense (lawyers are damned expensive, in case anyone's forgotten) but, I do have to say that if his family started a website to raise defense funds, then that's what that money goes toward!

What right does a court have to ask: "How much money you got?" when it comes to posting bail? That's like going into a doctor, and being asked: "How much money you got?" before he/she even treats you. What right does a court have to say: "Oh, so you've raised $200K for your defense eh? Well, we can't have you doing that, so we'll just take your defense money for your bail?"

These remaining questions I pose are also not necessarily in defense of Zimmerman, but they are posed because I think now that Martin's parents are starting to sound almost.....greedy.

I know this is not what happened, but they're treating it like (as Papa Crump put it) a bombshell?

"Oh, no. We expect you to toil and toil for your defense funds! We can't have you making it easy on yourself. We can't have you having supporters. You're the bad guy, remember?"

And the Crumps were "offended"? Why? Because Zimmerman has supporters? Because Zimmerman managed to raise defense funds...and at that funds which will likely BARELY cover the first few hours of his lawyer's work? (Lawyers are blood-sucking expensive, in case anyone forgot.)

Zimmerman "failed" to mention the money his site raised? Money that was earmarked for defense? Did the court seriously need to know that? No, unless the court is practicing thievery. That's the Crumps seeming to think that Zimmerman has no right to defense...the best defense he can get, by whatever means necessary. As far as the Crumps are concerned, Zimmerman should have a court-appointed attorney who'll just barely do his job. While I sympathize with their loss, and their desire for justice....they're just acting stupid now. The court ordered a bail amount, which apparently was posted. No sense crying over spilled milk.

Justice is supposed to be blind....not biased toward one view or the other. The Crumps' idea of justice is that Zimmerman be punished....period. Zimmerman's idea of justice is that he get off Scott-free. Justice is somewhere in between.

[Captain Tom Coughlin]

I agree with you on the money issue, Martok.

[Enterprise Captain]

Originally Posted by martok2112

Hmmmm....
Ok....now don't take this as a defense of Zimmerman,as I speak of this in a more generalized coverage of any man or woman who tries to raise funds for their own defense (lawyers are damned expensive, in case anyone's forgotten) but, I do have to say that if his family started a website to raise defense funds, then that's what that money goes toward!

What right does a court have to ask: "How much money you got?" when it comes to posting bail? That's like going into a doctor, and being asked: "How much money you got?" before he/she even treats you. What right does a court have to say: "Oh, so you've raised $200K for your defense eh? Well, we can't have you doing that, so we'll just take your defense money for your bail?"

These remaining questions I pose are also not necessarily in defense of Zimmerman, but they are posed because I think now that Martin's parents are starting to sound almost.....greedy.

I know this is not what happened, but they're treating it like (as Papa Crump put it) a bombshell?

"Oh, no. We expect you to toil and toil for your defense funds! We can't have you making it easy on yourself. We can't have you having supporters. You're the bad guy, remember?"

And the Crumps were "offended"? Why? Because Zimmerman has supporters? Because Zimmerman managed to raise defense funds...and at that funds which will likely BARELY cover the first few hours of his lawyer's work? (Lawyers are blood-sucking expensive, in case anyone forgot.)

Zimmerman "failed" to mention the money his site raised? Money that was earmarked for defense? Did the court seriously need to know that? No, unless the court is practicing thievery. That's the Crumps seeming to think that Zimmerman has no right to defense...the best defense he can get, by whatever means necessary. As far as the Crumps are concerned, Zimmerman should have a court-appointed attorney who'll just barely do his job. While I sympathize with their loss, and their desire for justice....they're just acting stupid now. The court ordered a bail amount, which apparently was posted. No sense crying over spilled milk.

Justice is supposed to be blind....not biased toward one view or the other. The Crumps' idea of justice is that Zimmerman be punished....period. Zimmerman's idea of justice is that he get off Scott-free. Justice is somewhere in between.

Originally Posted by martok2112

What right does a court have to ask: "How much money you got?" when it comes to posting bail?

Because a persons income is one of the factors that gets considered when setting bail. The point of setting a monetary amount for bail is to insure a person is not a flight risk and will return to court. The fact that Zimmerman collected money for his defense is not the issue here. The fact that he didn't disclose that information to his lawyers or the court is. Plus there are now questions as to whether his family knew about the money or not and if they lied in court which if they did is perjury.

[horatio]

Looks like some Clansmen gave their friend too much money.

[Captain Tom Coughlin]

He can't be in the Klan, he's hispanic. The Klan doesn't like them either. Of course, the Klan are a bunch of inbred morons so nobody cares what they like, but that's for another day.

[martok2112]

Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin

He can't be in the Klan, he's hispanic. The Klan doesn't like them either. Of course, the Klan are a bunch of inbred morons so nobody cares what they like, but that's for another day.

Agreed.

[martok2112]

Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain

Because a persons income is one of the factors that gets considered when setting bail. The point of setting a monetary amount for bail is to insure a person is not a flight risk and will return to court. The fact that Zimmerman collected money for his defense is not the issue here. The fact that he didn't disclose that information to his lawyers or the court is. Plus there are now questions as to whether his family knew about the money or not and if they lied in court which if they did is perjury.

Well, if a question was not asked, there was no need for volunteering information....so it's not exactly perjury.

[martok2112]

Originally Posted by horatio

Looks like some Clansmen gave their friend too much money.

Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin

He can't be in the Klan, he's hispanic. The Klan doesn't like them either. Of course, the Klan are a bunch of inbred morons so nobody cares what they like, but that's for another day.

Yep, Klansman hate pretty much anyone that's not white. I call 'em Redneck Nazis.