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  #81  
Old 09-10-2011, 02:41 AM
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horatio horatio is offline
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The story has already been resolved by the time Trek takes place I'd imagine. Gays aren't going anywhere, one way or the other people will have to resolve their prejudices or problems with gays. I mean a coming out of the closet story or some individual who has some problem with gays would seem a ridiculous story for Trek to me. These issues I'd imagine would be one hell of a throwback for gays living in that time. Someone on here mentioned that Lincoln was the only time someone referred to Uhura's ethnicity which to the crew of the Enterprise and to all of earth would seem a little strange I would think simply because those issues had been worked through in the past.

Maybe I'm wrong and sexuality in the 23rd century and 24th century is still an issue and starfleet has their own version of don't ask don't tell, but IMO that'd be just stupid.

Besides, the Marquis's issue was with the Cardassians kicking them out of their homes and the Federation not doing anything to help because of treaty issues. The guy on Voyager, who I believe Brad Duriff played, was a psychotic. Evidently mental illness is still a problem in the future. But who knows, sure you could concoct an antihomosexual story for some alien or human that's got a problem with two people of any species of the same sex being together, but isn't there more out there that would be far more interesting? The show's about humanity exploring the cosmos and as Q put it once, 'charting the unknown possibilities of existence' and all humanity should go along on that trip, or on that trek I guess you'd say. Anyway I think any sort of gay persecution story would be boring. If you're going to have a gay character, just have them there. You don't need to explain it or have some excuse to show it.

Watching Torchwood right now, it's interesting how they handle it.
I agree, a gay persecution story would feel weird in Trek. I think that once homophobia is gone it is gone for good. People with psychological issues as well as political conflict will always be there whereas something like racism, sexism or homophobia can be exterminated.
Where should racism come from once the idea is gone? I guess or rather hope that one day it will not have to be regulated via political correctness, i.e. explicit rules, anymore but rather will be socially hard-wired into us like shame concerning nudity or the incest taboo.
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  #82  
Old 09-10-2011, 04:02 AM
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kevin kevin is offline
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Maybe I'm too much of a pessimist.
I don't think it's pessimism.................but the world hasn't and isn't progressing at the same rate for everyone in it and in every part of it. That's less likely to alter IMO anytime soon.

For all the 'progress' made in the Western section of the World, it's still very different elsewhere. Sure, in general, in the West homosexuality is not the same issue it was 50, 60 years ago..............but in other parts of the world people are still beaten to death for it and live in fear of their sexuality being known openly.

It still even happens in the West not that unfrequently really.

In the fictionalised world of Trek, the United Earth came about in the wake of the discovery that humans were not alone in the universe anymore........so they had to sort themselves out. The incentive was there to do so. And that's about the only thing that really brings people together on the sort of scale required to put aside partisanship and all the other crap that clogs up development.

A common vision.

Troi herself sold this vision to Cochrane in First Contact in order to get him to do what the Enterprise needed him to do. Now, I'm not going to ignore the fact that two out of the three things she listed as being gone ('War......poverty......disease') actually didn't go anywhere at all - I'm not saying she lied strictly, but she needed to incentivise him to move his *** and get in Warp gear, so she did what was needed all within the general idea that his actions would still start to make things better generally - but it returns to the idea of common goals.

On the microlevel this doesn't mean that everyone loves everyone else, everyone gets along brilliantly and people don't still have their own disagreements and problems (be it an uncle you don't like, a father who dumps you because he can't handle it............whatever) because you still have billions of individuals on the planet who have their own lives and issues to work with.

But what if, say, around the time of United Earth and it's creation you had groups of people who didn't want to take that ride?

Be it because of religion, political differences, economic outlook..............could be anything of a hundred different things. So, maybe they as a group left Earth (not expelled by Earth, but left of their own volition) and established a colony where they could build a society that suited them. Different from the Earth that was moving forward in a way they disagreed with and had the majority with it, leaving them more in the minority?

And then what if a story was developed around that?

I think you could maybe construct something on that basis, because we know that over the couple hundred centuries before Starfleet and the Federation became what we as viewers know it as, there were lots of exoduses from Earth to set out and build new worlds. Some forced (like Khan on the Botany Bay in 'Space Seed') and some voluntary (like the Mariposa in 'Up The Long Ladder').

It wouldn't be without precedent.
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  #83  
Old 09-10-2011, 07:44 AM
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The folks from the TNG story weren't opposed to democracy and so on, the augments were fu*ked up by design and to be honest I can't imagine that anybody would not want to live in peace and prosperity after Earth is united. But there could have been an equivalent of "those who marched beneath the raptor's wings" during the eugenics wars / WWIII (as they overlap thematically they are not clearly distinguished in Trek's fuzzy fictional history) and of course there can always reemerge splinter groups like Terra Prime that are into eugenics.
Since "Journey to Babel" intra-Federation conflict has often provided good story material.
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  #84  
Old 09-10-2011, 08:43 AM
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I would imagine there's sufficient scope for it - of course it would likely apply more to a series set in the earlier days in general.

I would find it hard to imagine that United Earth operated and went about things flawlessly from it's inception. A bureacracy THAT huge is not going to be able to please everyone all the time and even the term 'United' seems to have been only so after a fashion. If I recall, there's evidence that not all countries on Earth signed up to it immediately and that some took longer to join over a period of several years.

One might wonder why that was?

Perhaps some of the terms (which I would have to imagine there was, there's never NOT) attached to joining the United Earth Government were such that some countries didn't want to sign up so quickly?

Or that sort of potentially rather severe (not in harshness, but in scope since it does suggest BIG Government) globalisation and centralisation of power might not be to the liking of those who sought a slightly more individual and personally free approach to living. In the early days when it was all unknown and still to prove itself as a method of Governance that could work. They seem quite happy with it by the 24th Century and in the core worlds like Earth itself but by then it's had a couple of centuries and few generations living under it to get used to it's pro's and con's. Not that we know for 100% what they may be, but they likely would be present, though even the situation that developed with The Maquis seems to illustrate that individuals can easily rebel on their political leaders even in the 24th C. So it would surely be a factor in it's early days.

Maybe they preferred to leave so that they could fashion their own destiny and version of peace and prosperity on a new world, without having to live under a type of structural government they didn't want to.

There's a hundred and one possibilities.

Who knows for sure, it's all another very undefined period in the timeline.
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  #85  
Old 09-10-2011, 09:57 AM
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You described well why humankind has united. For the first time in human history there was an outside gaze and they did not want to look petty in the eyes of the Vulcans. Although neither species wanted this quality of their relationship there was a paternal element to it. The Vulcans have been the father who overlooked the progress of their son and the son had to rebel to get out in space.
But we don't know what happened in the ninety years between first contact and the launch of the first warp 5 vessel so the unification (being the old lefty that I am I was about to write unionization) did not happen overnight and might have very well taken decades. It could have been a very bumpy ride with some wars and as you pointed out once warp-capable ships were mass-produced a faction with a totally different philosophy might have left Earth. But I have my doubts that there are still such major differences once warp ships become affordable. Leaving your homeworld is also a pretty big step.

I think that the cargo crews in ENT were more realistic. They did not want to get out of United Earth but they weren't particularly nice, exploration-hungry guys happy to meet aliens either, they were simply people on the frontier where life is rough.

About the Maquis, you indicated that there is a trade-off between centralization and representation which we also experience at the moment in Europe and which is even a frequent political issue in the US. This would clearly have also been an issue during the unification of Earth.

But isn't the crucial question is in what way fictional history provides dramatic material? Trek has mostly used fictional history as background. Let's take eugenics, besides knowing that one happened earlier we can't clearly tell the difference between the Eugenics War(s) and WWIII but it serves as a fuzzy background for characters like Khan, Green, Bashir and Paxton. And isn't that how events from a century or two ago influence us in the real world? History, just like personal memory, has usually more in common with a spectre than with hard facts.

Talking about spectres, I am no stupid Marxist but wouldn't this be a great propaganda line: "A spectre is haunting humankind — the spectre of a United Earth."
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  #86  
Old 09-10-2011, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by kevin View Post

In the fictionalised world of Trek, the United Earth came about in the wake of the discovery that humans were not alone in the universe anymore........so they had to sort themselves out. The incentive was there to do so. And that's about the only thing that really brings people together on the sort of scale required to put aside partisanship and all the other crap that clogs up development.

A common vision.
That is a very good point. And that world had it's wake up call to with World War III and a nuclear holocaust which destroyed many of these Eastern Governments that persecuted their people rather than rule justly.


Quote:
On the microlevel this doesn't mean that everyone loves everyone else, everyone gets along brilliantly and people don't still have their own disagreements and problems (be it an uncle you don't like, a father who dumps you because he can't handle it............whatever) because you still have billions of individuals on the planet who have their own lives and issues to work with.
It seems that the government is now better suited to allow us to have those issues without cost to an appropriate standard or living. I believe that has to do with cost of power becoming negligible.


Quote:
Be it because of religion, political differences, economic outlook..............could be anything of a hundred different things. So, maybe they as a group left Earth (not expelled by Earth, but left of their own volition) and established a colony where they could build a society that suited them. Different from the Earth that was moving forward in a way they disagreed with and had the majority with it, leaving them more in the minority?
Khan..
And many others that Kirk ran into that were both human but somehow got to the far reaches of space ahead of the Enterprise. They had versions of the US...Roman Native American and other civilizations... And It kinda said there was enough room in the galaxy for everyone...


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