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  #31  
Old 08-24-2011, 05:46 PM
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(Although I'm still hoping JJ pulls a Christopher Nolan and sets his Trek to self-destruct when he leaves, so that next time Paramount has no choice but to bring on somebody who wants to do something different)
I hope so too… but I wouldn't hold my breath… no one is going to be satisfied entirely with the next movie… I think generally we'll all be let down to some degree because I don't believe they will put the effort in to make the next movie any better or different than the first… its like the serials of the 40's and 50's were they movie quickly from one scene to the next and hope you miss the plot holes on the way.
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  #32  
Old 08-24-2011, 06:56 PM
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The whole proposal was also a means of explaining how ST had become oversaturated in exposure and had lost it's direction, not to mention that the writing was becoming more and more trapped within it's own self.

There were recreational areas in TOS, briefly seen, but never a major part of the story. I always figured that there were "movies", gyms, botanical areas, and such that allowed for recreation, However I would not want to see a series that utilized adventure/role playing in any of those areas to dominate the series. There would be plenty going on with the universe just on the other side of the hull that was there to investigate, why make something up in a holodeck to pretend?

This proposal was submitted as a legitimate way to take ST, keep it in it's original spirit of adventure, and free it from it's own restrictions. Nothing less than nu-Trek attempted to do, only there with a more contrived story. IMHO The movie worked and was in itself enjoyable, but as a slice of Trek, I don't feel so.

The proposal submitted by JMS seemed heavy with Trek ideals to investigate as a series and (maybe) possible movie arc.

JMS's proposal is/was meaty enough to lay the foundation to take Trek through five years of network or some form of movie series STORY.

It's been two, going into 3 years now and not much but conjecture on what the next ST movie is going to be about.
This.

(Except that I do think the new movie works quite well as a slice of Trek, but that's the only point here on which I disagree)

I agree with Horatio's assessment about risk aversion and lack of ideas being the main faults of Trek during the latter Berman years. However I think it's fair to point to the (supposed) saturation of holodeck stories, or time-travel stories for that matter, as being long-recognized examples of this. People who might complain about the latter are usually inevitably complaining about the former, whether they realize it or not. Even if it is merely commonly-held perception that Berman-era Trek relied too heavily on holodecks and time-travel, that perception becomes truthful just by virtue of being acknowledged. In other words 'everybody' already 'knows' ST has become oversaturated with holodeck and and time-travel stories, therefore it is so (oh yes, and -by the way- ST is also short on ideas and afraid of taking risks... etc, etc...).

Speaking for myself, I would prefer to never see the holodeck on ST, ever, again. Even in another post-TNG setting. But that is also my own 'fan' reaction, and fans never know what they want. I wouldn't wipe the holodeck from existence; I would just never mention it. Mike Okuda could publish all the books he wanted showing that the holodeck was still on level X of the Enterprise G-or-whatever, but the characters just wouldn't 'happen to' be visiting it during the course of any episode. In my view the holodeck is primarily a staple of Berman-era Trek, and it's been 'done to death', and you would have to subject me to seven whole seasons of VOY (some of which I couldn't make it through the first time) to try and prove otherwise. Even the 'really good' holodeck eps, such as 'Ship in a Bottle', I already have on DVD thanks to the TNG season box sets. I can spin them anytime I want to. I don't need more.

Show us instead more 'physical' forms of recreation (and I'm sorry, but the holodeck is *thematically* analogous to watching TV instead of playing sports. Blame the writers for that, not the messenger). How did BSG or Firefly both deal with the empty vastness of space or the down-time that resulted?

In fact, if I were producing ST I would make it a standing "rule" (use of quotation marks deliberate) for the writing staff not to submit any scripts involving holodecks or time travel... again on the grounds that they've been 'done to death'. This rule would be according to the philosophy employed by both the Kobayashi Maru and TNG's own 'Tapestry', by which all such submissions would nonetheless be seriously considered before deciding, on a case-by-case basis, whether to slap the writer's wrist or promote him instead. The staff writer who whines that it never even 'occurred' to him to break your rule, isn't the guy you'd want writing holodeck (or time-travel) stories anyway.
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Old 08-24-2011, 07:10 PM
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I hope so too… but I wouldn't hold my breath… no one is going to be satisfied entirely with the next movie… I think generally we'll all be let down to some degree because I don't believe they will put the effort in to make the next movie any better or different than the first… its like the serials of the 40's and 50's were they movie quickly from one scene to the next and hope you miss the plot holes on the way.
I'm optimistic here, because I think the last film was exactly what it needed to be, and because comments from everybody involved seem to indicate they understand the next film needs to be just as much a game-changer and not merely a repeat.

I can see the next film possibly attempting to do too much, and becoming an Iron Man 2 that everyone says is not as good as the first one. I don't envy the position they're in at all. But I will be genuinely disappointed and surprised if it shows no ambitions of being greater in scope, or more in-depth in character and theme, than the first one.

Next movie will be the real test of Abrams and company. If they really are satisfied with 'just' replicating the speed and spark of the first movie, then it will become a lot harder to defend both films.
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Old 08-24-2011, 10:06 PM
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If I recall he gets a 1/3rd 'story' credit on THOR, but no screenwriting credit. I liked the movie's middle act, but found myself mostly indifferent to the first and third acts (or those parts of the film set on Asgard or wherever). Most of my exposure to Straczynski comes from B5, but I wouldn't hold up THOR as a sample of his writing.

The only movie I've seen (that I know of) for which he got screenplay credit was Changeling starring Angelina Jolie. Seems to me it was fairly solid, although he does tend to "overwrite" (by his own admission, with B5 being a classic example of this).

I would say that if Paramount decides to continue the current wave of ST feature films beyond JJ's (or Bad Robot's) involvement, bringing on someone like JMS to write the story/script would definitely be preferable to keeping Orci/Kurtzman around to work under a different directing/production team.

(Although I'm still hoping JJ pulls a Christopher Nolan and sets his Trek to self-destruct when he leaves, so that next time Paramount has no choice but to bring on somebody who wants to do something different)
To be honest I found myself between indifferent to unintentionally laughing at chunks of it.................anyhoo, I'm getting very anti-The Avengers at the moment because the lead in movies seem to be getting worse and worse and the whole thing just looks like it's being rammed down people's throats for May 2012.

But I digress...............

Changeling was OK as a 'based on a true story' L.A Cops corruption style story, but it was a bit unfocused and rambling. I saw it the once in 2008 but it's one of those ones I've never felt the desire to go and watch again afterwards.
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  #35  
Old 08-24-2011, 10:09 PM
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Next movie will be the real test of Abrams and company. If they really are satisfied with 'just' replicating the speed and spark of the first movie, then it will become a lot harder to defend both films.
I share the optimism, but I think it's going to be interesting to see if they really ARE taking onboard what they have repeatedly claimed they 'get' about the problems with the first film or not.

They maintain they understand that a meatier story and themes are the biggest issues.

So they have to then demonstrate that they are acting on that. If they don't.............then yes, there are stormier waters ahead.
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  #36  
Old 08-25-2011, 01:22 AM
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Agreeing with both Kevin and Samwiseb on the previous post.
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