The Official Star Trek Movie Forum

The Official Star Trek Movie Forum > Star Trek > Star Trek XI: The Movie > What did you like/dislike about Star Trek (2009)
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #91  
Old 04-11-2011, 02:23 PM
Captain Tom Coughlin's Avatar
Captain Tom Coughlin Captain Tom Coughlin is offline
Fleet Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USS Meadowlands
Posts: 10,990
Default

Perhaps because Spock is half human his emotions are not quite as volatile as the average Vulcan.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 04-11-2011, 04:00 PM
omegaman's Avatar
omegaman omegaman is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Penrith NSW Australia
Posts: 4,613
Default

Less Vulcanised…
__________________
TREK IS TREK. WHATEVER THE TIMELINE!

The next TV Series should be called STARFLEET!
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 04-12-2011, 01:18 AM
samwiseb samwiseb is offline
Commander
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,208
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin View Post
I would love a Vulcan story. They probably won't do it, but there is a lot they could do with it.
You know, I think we might actually get something like that. If not with this movie, then perhaps the next one.

Let's start with a couple basic assumptions about the current movie franchise:

-First, that the most commonly-familiar aspects of ST (particularly TOS) are going to get pushed to the forefront. Last movie, the Orion Slave Girl decided to leave her job and make an honest living going to college (er... the academy), seemingly just so the movie could show her making out with Kirk. After all, 'everyone' knows Kirk had a green woman in the original series.

-And second, that movies in general are about character arcs and Life-Changing Events. Generally speaking, if your script doesn't have these ingredients, then you don't have a movie. ST films of the past have been largely 'exempt' from this rule, on the concession that every movie can't seem like a Life-Changing Event for the characters after 79 episodes of television had already passed (and many critics were probably all too happy to lower expectations anyway). However, since ST is now 'primarily' a movie franchise, the conventional rules of drama would seem to apply.

The first film had the ST crew (particularly Kirk and Spock) coming together and learning to function as a team. It is therefore not unreasonable to assume that the films from here on out will involve problems -both personal and cosmic- that test the integrity of the ST 'family' by threatening to pull it back apart.

In keeping with assumption #1, we already have a "one of the above" list of characters who will 'likely' appear in the next film. I believe they were Harry Mudd, the Gorn, Gary Mitchell and [I forget the fourth one. I'm thinking it was either Trelane or the Horta]. Whichever one it is, I'm thinking it will just be a very brief cameo. Otherwise they wouldn't have spilled it.

Meanwhile Kirk has dropped out of the Kirk/Uhura/Spock romantic triangle (unless he's more of an idiot than I give him credit for). And hopefully by the end of next movie we'll know whether Uhura (per ST09) or McCoy (per 'traditional' TOS) is the third member of the Trekkian triumvirate.

Now. 'Amok Time' is another one of those classic episodes that 'almost' everyone probably knows about to some degree. How long do you suppose the writers will resist bringing T'Pring into one of these movies? With the explanation that she was off-world at the time Vulcan went kaput?

In doing so, you achieve some obvious results that are nonetheless dramatically 'truthful' with ST characters and canon. You 'heat up' the Uhura/Spock triangle (don't look at me like that, I'm just making observations here). And you provide a 'passive' antagonist who can seduce/guilt-trip Spock into reconsidering his obligations to country vs the Enterprise/Starfleet (especially if he already takes a lot of flak from fellow Vulcans who have had to make greater personal sacrifices for Vulcan society in the wake of what happened).

And a storyline dealing with the aftermath of the Vulcan diaspora, and possibly a renegade faction of Vulcan causing problems for the Federation, would seem to provide JJ and company with the perfect excuse for working such personal elements into their story. Again, from a purely observational point of view.
__________________


Last edited by samwiseb : 04-12-2011 at 01:58 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old 04-12-2011, 05:04 AM
Pauln6's Avatar
Pauln6 Pauln6 is offline
Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 476
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by samwiseb View Post

-First, that the most commonly-familiar aspects of ST (particularly TOS) are going to get pushed to the forefront. Last movie, the Orion Slave Girl decided to leave her job and make an honest living going to college (er... the academy), seemingly just so the movie could show her making out with Kirk. After all, 'everyone' knows Kirk had a green woman in the original series.

Now. 'Amok Time' is another one of those classic episodes that 'almost' everyone probably knows about to some degree. How long do you suppose the writers will resist bringing T'Pring into one of these movies? With the explanation that she was off-world at the time Vulcan went kaput?

In doing so, you achieve some obvious results that are nonetheless dramatically 'truthful' with ST characters and canon. You 'heat up' the Uhura/Spock triangle (don't look at me like that, I'm just making observations here). And you provide a 'passive' antagonist who can seduce/guilt-trip Spock into reconsidering his obligations to country vs the Enterprise/Starfleet (especially if he already takes a lot of flak from fellow Vulcans who have had to make greater personal sacrifices for Vulcan society in the wake of what happened).

And a storyline dealing with the aftermath of the Vulcan diaspora, and possibly a renegade faction of Vulcan causing problems for the Federation, would seem to provide JJ and company with the perfect excuse for working such personal elements into their story. Again, from a purely observational point of view.
I agree 100%. It's a logical progression (no pun intended - seriously) and it ticks many of the boxes I would expect them to tick for the reasons you have outlined. It also allows for the possible return of Ben Kingsley. There was also a rumour a while back about an unnamed actress who had screentested for Vulcan ears or something. I'll be disappointed if T'Pau doesn't get a look in this time though - I'm fed up of all the women being girlfriends or mothers.

It's harder to know what the A-plot will be but my money is probably on some kind of disaster. This could allow a science character like Carol Marcus to be brought in (yes I know I'm fed up of girlfriends but Carol is great) but it could also allow cameos from a character like Harry Mudd - my money is probably on a drunken Scotty/Harry scene, although I'm rather partial to Harry being a 'legitimate' salvage operator who recovers a certain, seemingly derelict, ship in the closing credits...
__________________
Angels of Acheron: http://www.youtube.com/user/pauln6
Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old 04-12-2011, 08:15 AM
starwarsrcks's Avatar
starwarsrcks starwarsrcks is offline
Vice Admiral
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 3,062
Default

so are we going to see a remake of a TOS episode
__________________



Space is disease and dangerous wrapped in darkness and silence-Leonard Bones McCoy
Reply With Quote
  #97  
Old 04-12-2011, 08:58 AM
kevin's Avatar
kevin kevin is offline
Federation Councillor
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: East Kilbride, Glasgow, UK
Posts: 21,078
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by horatio View Post
Of course they have strong emotions, suppress them and thus fool themselves, that's not the point.
We rather disagree on whether stopping to behave like this would do any good for them.

I basically side with TFF and Fusion, i.e. that whoever tries to become more open and relaxed with his emotions has to fail, whereas you side more with TUC, Unification and ST09, i.e. that the late Spock shows that it does work. Of course all arguments are valid, I merely want to point out that the idea that the Vulcans would leave behind an oppressive system and choose a more free one is problematic. The guy from Fusion fell into a void, there was nothing so he became primordially violent, whereas Sybok filled the gap with the search for paradise.

So when Vulcans free themselves from their bonds they need another God, in Sybok's case even literally, or they regress into uncivilized, again meant to be taken literally, being out of civilization, brutes.
Yep, that's because shifting their structures would lead to some destabilisation in the interim......................because Vulcans don't have as well developed mechanisms for dealing with their emotions.

Using the teen love vs older love analogy............yes, young people fall in 'love' all the time especially as kids. Because they don't have the systems to deal with and understand the emotion of love and the different kinds of it there are. They can't, because they haven't experienced enough varieties of love to start understanding and dealing with it on an emotional level.

(I would often point anyone at this point to the dual versions of Joni Mitchell's 'Both Sides Now', the one she recorded as a young woman and the one she recorded as an older woman with life of later experiences under her belt for a semblance of what I mean).

Vulcan society is similar, 2000 years after Surak, Vulcans don't have the mechanisms that humans (who kept their emotions) do to process and cope with them, so they have difficulty handling them if they decide to try and not do what orthodoxy says they must. The emotions are still there............but highly suppressed instead until Kolinahr takes place. But they are still there and (at times) in some Vulcans resurface. Then the fun begins sometimes.

Prime Spock took a lifetime to balance his two sides out until he was more human than Vulcan really, so I'm not suggesting that it would ever be easy for Vulcan society to alter............it wouldn't............and maybe they shouldn't anyway if for the majority it works for them.

But there are always exceptions - good and bad.

Quote:
Perhaps I should apply for a job in the Vulcan propaganda, eh, information ministry.
What do they pay? Do they have Pon Farr Hazard bonuses?

Quote:
Originally Posted by samwiseb View Post
You know, I think we might actually get something like that. If not with this movie, then perhaps the next one.

Let's start with a couple basic assumptions about the current movie franchise:

-First, that the most commonly-familiar aspects of ST (particularly TOS) are going to get pushed to the forefront. Last movie, the Orion Slave Girl decided to leave her job and make an honest living going to college (er... the academy), seemingly just so the movie could show her making out with Kirk. After all, 'everyone' knows Kirk had a green woman in the original series.

-And second, that movies in general are about character arcs and Life-Changing Events. Generally speaking, if your script doesn't have these ingredients, then you don't have a movie. ST films of the past have been largely 'exempt' from this rule, on the concession that every movie can't seem like a Life-Changing Event for the characters after 79 episodes of television had already passed (and many critics were probably all too happy to lower expectations anyway). However, since ST is now 'primarily' a movie franchise, the conventional rules of drama would seem to apply.

The first film had the ST crew (particularly Kirk and Spock) coming together and learning to function as a team. It is therefore not unreasonable to assume that the films from here on out will involve problems -both personal and cosmic- that test the integrity of the ST 'family' by threatening to pull it back apart.

In keeping with assumption #1, we already have a "one of the above" list of characters who will 'likely' appear in the next film. I believe they were Harry Mudd, the Gorn, Gary Mitchell and [I forget the fourth one. I'm thinking it was either Trelane or the Horta]. Whichever one it is, I'm thinking it will just be a very brief cameo. Otherwise they wouldn't have spilled it.

Meanwhile Kirk has dropped out of the Kirk/Uhura/Spock romantic triangle (unless he's more of an idiot than I give him credit for). And hopefully by the end of next movie we'll know whether Uhura (per ST09) or McCoy (per 'traditional' TOS) is the third member of the Trekkian triumvirate.

Now. 'Amok Time' is another one of those classic episodes that 'almost' everyone probably knows about to some degree. How long do you suppose the writers will resist bringing T'Pring into one of these movies? With the explanation that she was off-world at the time Vulcan went kaput?

In doing so, you achieve some obvious results that are nonetheless dramatically 'truthful' with ST characters and canon. You 'heat up' the Uhura/Spock triangle (don't look at me like that, I'm just making observations here). And you provide a 'passive' antagonist who can seduce/guilt-trip Spock into reconsidering his obligations to country vs the Enterprise/Starfleet (especially if he already takes a lot of flak from fellow Vulcans who have had to make greater personal sacrifices for Vulcan society in the wake of what happened).

And a storyline dealing with the aftermath of the Vulcan diaspora, and possibly a renegade faction of Vulcan causing problems for the Federation, would seem to provide JJ and company with the perfect excuse for working such personal elements into their story. Again, from a purely observational point of view.
That actually works for the most part as a potential story source. You'd need to have the renegade the A story (you run the risk of echoing Sybock but as long as the character doesn't become a biological relation of Spock it might work) and the Spock dilemma the B.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pauln6 View Post
....................although I'm rather partial to Harry being a 'legitimate' salvage operator who recovers a certain, seemingly derelict, ship in the closing credits...
See, everyone is different but for me that's where fanwank starts to rear it's head in a less than satisfying way................
__________________
'If the Apocalypse starts, beep me!' - Buffy Summers
'The sky's the limit.....' Jean-Luc Picard, 'All Good Things'


courtesy of Saquist
Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old 04-12-2011, 09:55 AM
samwiseb samwiseb is offline
Commander
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,208
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin View Post
That actually works for the most part as a potential story source. You'd need to have the renegade the A story (you run the risk of echoing Sybock but as long as the character doesn't become a biological relation of Spock it might work) and the Spock dilemma the B.
Agreed.

I actually have always kinda liked Sybok, even though much of his dialog left a lot to be desired. As a Vulcan, he made a unique religious terrorist, in that he was (genuinely) unaccountable:

"DO you realize what you have done? It wasn't bloodshed I wanted." (Um, okay. If you were anybody else I'd ask, what did you think was going to happen?)
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:58 PM.


Forum theme courtesy of Mark Lambert
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2009 by Paramount Pictures. STAR TREK and all related
marks and logos are trademarks of CBS Studios Inc. All Rights Reserved.