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  #21  
Old 01-11-2011, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
Concerning the article, I agree with you that the author is a bit condescending towards other religions. But, without intending to defend him, he also recognizes the kind side of Trek or Christianity (I guess we could also simply call it common decency). So I'd say he is a Dark Jedi, caught between the Light and the Dark side.
I hear you. The intent of the article still bothers me though. Maybe the author doesn't even realize it but it seems like he is trying to justify that Catholicism is good because look how it is applied in Star Trek. It also sort of comes of as my beliefs maybe more valid vs. your beliefs because mine are portrayed on a regular basis.


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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
About religious schools, I don't think that we have any over here, probably because religious tuition is integrated into the normal school system. I think that any private school needs to receive public funds so one might have to ask more principal questions. Should there be religious schools (your article shows the Dark Side and Dawkins has also dug up some ugly sh*t in British religious schools) or, that's the lefty in me, should there be private schools at all? In my opinion the school system should have an integrating and not a seperating function.
An interesting idea. Perhaps every school would offer an optional class for each religion just like any other class. In principal it sounds good but again you read that article I posted and it just goes to show how something that seems straight forward and makes sense gets twisted by irrational fears or beliefs. I think it would be hard to implement but I do like the idea.

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The great George Carlin also has some nice insights into abortion
Mr. Carlin was a smart man. Thanks for that link.

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Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
It's their government, their territory they shouldn't have to make concessions in their own sovereignty. It's that simple. If Keiko could follow or make concessions for the dominant beliefs then you shouldn't be teaching under their sphere of influence. The same would go for a Bajoran teacher teaching in Federation territory. Keep the religion out and teach the facts. It's fair and objective with out putting your own values over someone else. If the other parents didn't like Bajorans values they can remove them from the school.

That's never said and several times Sisko is given orders from the Provisional Governemnt such as when his First Officer was replaced with out his consent, or when certain former terrorist were given amnesty. So the Federation is in command of the station by the station was repeatedly called a Bajoran station which is why technically Kira had to OFFICIALLY protest the Federations refusal to turn the station over Provisional Governement during Call to Arms.
I stand corrected. DS9 does fall under Bajoran law and the Federation were asked to only help run the station. Since that's the case the opening of the school and the curriculum should have gone threw the Bajoran government for approval.

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Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
Reminder: The Klingons were not a prewarp civilization yet Picard quoth the Prime Directive here. Sisko also says at the beginning of DS9 that the PD applies as well.
I think you intended to add a link above but there is none.


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Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
The difference is perspective. It's respect for what is divine. Calling them aliens instead of prophets. These are their gods, it may seem extreme but the perspective is a valid concern for reverence.

Sure it is a wormhole and their is nothing wrong with calling it that because it describes a phenomena. But what does the Federation know about whether the Prophets are ALIEN to bajor or not? The Prophets say they are of Bajor. The Federation propaganda is for the purpose of dismissing the prophets not for being factual.
I hear you. I don't know if this is directly related but I feel it is similar. This is something I've been struggling with a bit. How can I say to someone I respect their religion when the truth is I don't? I respect their right to choose religion. I don't mean to sound harsh and I know people can take that the wrong way but if I say I respect someone's religion then I'm being a bit of a hypocrite and a liar. I don't really have an issue with people believing in a higher power but organized religion bothers me in many ways. I was raised reformed Christian and the God of the Bible along with many other aspects of Christianity bother me.

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That's a belief...and beliefs are different from one person to the next. I cannot and will not dictate my beliefs of what is the best option to a sovereignty. I have no right to challenge them and their culture and their rules. I may have a personal preference but that's a bias.

I think the separation is a good idea because the church gets carried away but the separation is partially illusionary as the representatives are allowed to make legislation that follows their own values instead of the people the represent which is why people vote in people of like beliefs. So religion still makes it in. That the idea behind the conservative label.
It is a belief but that belief is based on human history. If the Earth is to become a global community I think that is the best way to go.

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Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
you're correct it was Eddington.
I thought about this quote a little more like you say it is an extreme perspective but I can also understand it. In the case of the Bajorans they pretty much had no other choice but to ask for Federation assistance or end up possibly under Cardassian rule again. The Federation then came in and started to assimilate them slowly, it is kind of true. This brings me back to my favorite quote from "In the Hand of the Prophets:"

"We don't always agree. We have some damn good fights, in fact. But we always come away from them with a little better understanding and appreciation of the other." - Sisko

I know we don't see eye to eye on a lot of things but I do find these debates interesting. In the past I have changed my view on things because of previous debates so I do value these exchanges.

Last edited by Enterprise Captain : 01-11-2011 at 06:27 PM.
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  #22  
Old 01-11-2011, 01:35 PM
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I
Since that's the case the opening of the school and the curriculum should have gone threw the Bajoran government for approval.
Precisely why Winn was just blowing hot air and creating problems because she was not a government representative. But they do give a certain deference to the Kai but she wasn't even Kai at the time. She was appealing to a base of people that believed that bajor should stand alone.

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I think you intended to add a link above but there is none.
Sorry...I've done a lot of research in the past few Weeks on DS9. I'm at my wits end with references. Rest assured the Prime Directive is mentioned directly considering the Bajorans in Emissary. (The site where I typically get the script information is full of virus)




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I hear you. I don't know if this is directly related but I feel it is similar. This is something I've been struggling with a bit. How can I say to someone I respect their religion when the truth is I don't? I respect their right to choose religion. I don't mean to sound harsh and I know people can take that the wrong way but if I say I respect someone's religion then I'm being a bit of a hypocrite and a liar. I don't really have an issue with people believing in a higher power but organized religion bothers me in many ways. I was raised reformed Christian and the God of the Bible along with many other aspects of Christianity bother me.
I'm not sure if I can help you there. I have respect for everyone's beliefs. Mutal respect doesn't start with agreement. I think it starts with the effort to understand the other.

The Bajorans are a really good example of that. They allow the Pah-Wraith worshipers to do their own thing. They don't hunt them down or unlawfully detain them. And they didn't really have a problem with the Federations attitude about the profits. They have a really cool...live-let-live philosophy yet they are fierce about fighting for their planet. The whole D'jara's thing didn't fit the bajorans. A cast system in place just before the occupation (50 year prior) doesn't make sense that they culture abandoned them in just one generation. If they were that important that every bajoran went by them for their purpose in life and their socity standards it's not something that 50 years of occuptation could distinguish with out the bajorans going right back to it right after the occupation. The Cardassians would have had to kill all the elderly and adults and raise a completely new population for them to quickly forget them. YES...I know...that was a tangent.

I guess I'm saying the Bajoran way really does work. They are a religiously enlightened society. And it's not unlike the Native American religions that were and are fairly enlightened or even Buddhism and Hinduism. We get our disgust for religions involvement from the big 3. Jewish, Islam and Christianty who are at odds with each other over philosophy, territory and members. We've been burned and now we're shy about the concept as a whole.

Quote:
I thought about this quote a little more like you say it is an extreme perspective but I can also understand it. In the case of the Bajorans they pretty much had no other choice but to ask for Federation assistance or end up possibly under Cardassian rule again. The Federation then came in and started to assimilate them slowly, it is kind of true. This brings me back to my favorite quote from "In the Hand of the Prophets:"

"We don't always agree. We have some damn good fights, in fact. But we always come away from them with a little better understanding and appreciation of the other." - Sisko
Then you understand, that mutual respect better than you think.

Quote:
I know we don't see eye to eye on a lot of things but I do find these debates interesting. In the past I have changed my view on things because of previous debates so I do value these exchanges.
I've never had a problem with you or anyone else in a debate. NEVER. It's the nature of the Beast. It's the process of bridging schisms. Perhaps I enjoy the debate too much but I enjoy the challenge, failures and successes because it engages my intellect.
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  #23  
Old 01-11-2011, 10:50 PM
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I hear you. The intent of the article still bothers me though. Maybe the author doesn't even realize it but it seems like he is trying to justify that Catholicism is good because look how it is applied in Star Trek. It also sort of comes of as my beliefs maybe more valid vs. your beliefs because mine are portrayed on a regular basis.
I think that this is related to the old question of unviversality and while I normally side with the liberal idea of providing a univeral framework in which particular religious or political believes can manifest themselves I also think that universality is accessible via particularity. You choose something and commit yourself to it, in case of this author Catholicism, and precisely because of that you realize universal values. I believe that I am more universal when I am particular and committed to being a lefty than when I am wishy-washy-centre which seems more universal on the first glance.
This is again paradoxical but what's e.g. the point of being a fairly moderate and liberal religious beliefer if all the things you really believe are common sensical and not really related to the specific religion? There is a sense of hypocrisy about it and I rather take the orthodox Christian who believes that he is a sinner than the liberal, postmodern Christian who mixes it perhaps a bit with Buddhism to feel well. It's religion, it should be serious and not be a wellness weekend.


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Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
Sorry...I've done a lot of research in the past few Weeks on DS9. I'm at my wits end with references. Rest assured the Prime Directive is mentioned directly considering the Bajorans in Emissary. (The site where I typically get the script information is full of virus)
I am not sure whether my antivirus system is that good but when I search Trek quotes I always use this site (http://www.chakoteya.net) and my virus scanner doesn't protest.
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  #24  
Old 01-12-2011, 09:37 AM
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Saquist Saquist is offline
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Book marking that one....I've given a company computer a virus just going on the other site.

PICARD: Your job is to do everything short of violating the Prime Directive to make sure that they are. I have been made aware by Starfleet of your objections to this assignment. I would have thought that after three years spent at the Utopia Planitia yards, that you would be ready for a change. ~Emissary
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