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  #201  
Old 12-13-2010, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Botany Bay View Post
But the threat is there, explicitly, and that was my point.
Yes, that's true. In some hypothetical scenario, the US may decide to invade and I mean truly invade Hague, not send in a small force, and free its nationals from the ICC and the US can point to a law and say they had legal standing to take action, but in the real world, do you really think the US would raze Hague, destroy the ICC, because that is what an invasion is. We're talking about an insurance policy for American detainees overseas, that's what this Law truly is and the real debate concerning this law is in legitimacy if you ask me. The US doesn't recognize the ICC nor does is it a part of the court or under its jurisdiction and the ICC certainly will not recognize this American Service-Members Protection Act. International law, is the real issue here. I still say getting invasion out of this is pushing it but that's my opinion as they say.
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  #202  
Old 12-13-2010, 12:04 PM
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Typical Chomsky Left, obsessed with facts (as a way to convince yourself that they are in not in ideology?) but not interested in the larger picture and the big questions.
And here we go again. Just what I discribed in my former post.

The larger picture is what I discribed in my last post. Now you call me names, mock facts and disregard them in favour of some 'larger picture'. And you claim I am not interested in that larger picture. How much larger then world politics, the fundamental principle of democracy, representation and justice can it possibly get? And how can one see a 'larger picture' without facts?

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I still say getting invasion out of this is pushing it but that's my opinion as they say.
Are we fighting over words now? Is that it? Okay, then threatening Europe by claiming the will to have US military violate its borders and airspace, its national sovereignity, is not an invasion proclamation. Fine. Happy now?

Its still a threat for the national security of european member states.

Now, who was the guy here who wanted Assange get punished by every possible way short of assasination for threatening US national security? Why is he not screaming that US Senat, Congress and the former Bush government, together with the members of Pentagon must get punished by every possible way short of assasination for threatening the national security of EU member states?

You see whats going on here?

Last edited by Botany Bay : 12-13-2010 at 12:18 PM.
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  #203  
Old 12-13-2010, 12:09 PM
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No, but any time I have the outrageous audacity to even imply that the US is anything but a benevolent force of truth and justice who has nothing but the worlds liberty and freedom at its heart your first reaction is to accuse me of siding with the enemy, support dictators or terrorists, or of being anti-american, anti-israel or any other form of nasty evil. You paint me as an ideological distorter and supporter of China-Russia-Iran-Nazi-Terrorist-Evil-Scum.

Then, when this doesnt work anymore, because I present some facts supporting my claims you go with ignoring it. You did it, Livingston did it, everyone of you did it. Then, when this is no longer possible you flat out deny the existance of these facts or try to spin them untill in the end one half of you leaves the discussion and goes silent while the other half goes with: Mmmhhh, may be, kind of, but its all not as bad as you paint it. Its a little bad, may be. We all have our perspectives.

Go back and take a look for yourself, if you dont believe me.

I dont know how to categorize such a behaviour.

Peace.
BB, you're taking this too personally. It's just a difference of opinion, no need to start labeling people for crying out loud. BTW, I read your facts and I just don't see it the way you do. That's all.
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  #204  
Old 12-13-2010, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Botany Bay View Post
And here we go again. Just what I discribed in my former post.

The larger picture is what I discribed in my last post. Now you call me names, mock facts and disregard them in favour of some 'larger picture'. And you claim I am not interested in that larger picture. How much larger then world politics, the fundamental principal of democracy, representation and justice can it possibly get? And how can one see a 'larger picture' without facts?
I don't mock facts, I mock highly distorted facts which you try to present as facts. Nice try but you gotta find a dumber crowd.
And don't complain when I call you a Chomsky Lefty when you call me a US-flag-waver. I think the former is far closer to the truth than the latter.

Anyway, you can call me all names all you like. I am a dick in political discussions so I deserve it. But if you call reasonable and calm centre / centre-left participants like Livingston "facts-denier" you just ridicule yourself.

Last edited by horatio : 12-13-2010 at 12:17 PM.
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  #205  
Old 12-13-2010, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Botany Bay View Post
And here we go again. Just what I discribed in my former post.

The larger picture is what I discribed in my last post. Now you call me names, mock facts and disregard them in favour of some 'larger picture'. And you claim I am not interested in that larger picture. How much larger then world politics, the fundamental principal of democracy, representation and justice can it possibly get? And how can one see a 'larger picture' without facts?



Are we fighting over words now? Is that it? Okay, then threatening Europe by claiming the will to have US military violate its borders and airspace, its national sovereignity, is not an invasion proclamation. Fine. Happy now?

Its still a threat for the national security of european member states.

Now, who was the guy here who wanted Assange get punished by every possible way short of assasination for threatening US national security? Why is he not screaming that US Senat, Congress and the former Bush government, together with the members of Pentagon must get punished by every possible way short of assasination for threatening the national security of EU member states?

You see whats going on here?
That was me you are referring to, and the only thing I called for was the shutting down of the site. You then went on to say that I care nothing for Human Rights because I pointed out the difference between international law and treaty and domestic law. You are an ***. It's fine to have a difference of opinion, but it is in fact you who were the first to stoop to name calling, not any of us. How seriously are we supposed to take your protests?

As far as Assange goes, he is a threat to US and European security. And the Europeans, as well as Russia and several other countries believe this to be true. It's not just the nasty evil United States. He has far more to worry about from Russia. Putin is ex-KGB. He won't hesitate.
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  #206  
Old 12-13-2010, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Botany Bay View Post
Are we fighting over words now? Is that it? Okay, then threatening Europe by claiming the will to have US military violate its borders and airspace, its national sovereignity, is not an invasion proclamation. Fine. Happy now?

Its still a threat for the national security of Europe.
No, I'm not fighting over words. I just asked for some sort of explanation of your statement that the US is planning to invade Europe and the only thing you give is this vague law that is so far in hypothetical territory that attempting to pin invasion to it seems ridiculous to me. And yes, I'm okay, wouldn't go as far as to say happy, I'm doing all right. I'm not looking for a fight or a one-upmanship posting fest. Just wanted a straight answer and if your answer is that law, then I got it. Enough said.
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  #207  
Old 12-13-2010, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin View Post
It's not just the nasty evil United States. He has far more to worry about from Russia. Putin is ex-KGB. He won't hesitate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygMEt4lUWo8

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Originally Posted by Livingston View Post
No, I'm not fighting over words. I just asked for some sort of explanation of your statement that the US is planning to invade Europe and the only thing you give is this vague law that is so far in hypothetical territory that attempting to pin invasion to it seems ridiculous to me. And yes, I'm okay, wouldn't go as far as to say happy, I'm doing all right. I'm not looking for a fight or a one-upmanship posting fest. Just wanted a straight answer and if your answer is that law, then I got it. Enough said.
Vague law? Okay, so the threat of invasion is vague. Fair enough.
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  #208  
Old 12-13-2010, 12:24 PM
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I am aware of his public comments on the matter. It changes nothing, you really don't know how this game really works, do you.
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  #209  
Old 12-13-2010, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin View Post
That was me you are referring to, and the only thing I called for was the shutting down of the site. You then went on to say that I care nothing for Human Rights because I pointed out the difference between international law and treaty and domestic law. You are an ***. It's fine to have a difference of opinion, but it is in fact you who were the first to stoop to name calling, not any of us. How seriously are we supposed to take your protests?

As far as Assange goes, he is a threat to US and European security. And the Europeans, as well as Russia and several other countries believe this to be true. It's not just the nasty evil United States. He has far more to worry about from Russia. Putin is ex-KGB. He won't hesitate.
I think fact-distorting would be an euphemism for this kind of ugly lie, presenting you as somebody who wants Assange to be assassinated. Two instances don't make a pattern but we see how BB deals with "facts" so far.

I totally disagree with you about Assange, for you he is a security threat and for me he is a transparency hero. We talk about it, we debate it fiercly but we don't go around and distort what the other guy says or even bluntly lie.
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  #210  
Old 12-13-2010, 12:28 PM
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Botany Bay Botany Bay is offline
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Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin View Post
I am aware of his public comments on the matter. It changes nothing, you really don't know how this game really works, do you.
True, I dont know how the game is played.
But I do know that it is played by ALL sides.

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I think fact-distorting would be an euphemism for this kind of ugly lie. Two instances don't make a pattern but we see how BB deals with "facts" so far.
Thats it. Thanks for all the fish. You where great debating partners.

Macht's gut und Auf Wiedersehen!

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