[horatio]

Originally Posted by Saquist

If the criticism is too harsh then look the other way, Horatio.
Look the other way as children are used for sexual purposes.
Make light of it as offenders are hidden from justice.
That too has become tradition.

I agree that specific criticism cannot be too harsh in the case of sexual abuse and the cover-up.
But your general criticism of Catholicism doesn't achieve anything. When I was a kid, the oecumenic movement was a big thing and that's how it is meant to be in my opinion, unification and not seperation of all Christians. One has to find the common ground and not emphasize the differences.

[janeway72]

Originally Posted by Saquist
You know, it's the Catholic Church that gives religion a bad name.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saquist
Atheist treat all religions the same, throwing a blanket over all the organizations

Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain

As an (what do you call someone that believes God most likely doesn't exist but isn't willing to write he/she/it off with 100% certainty? Isn't that technically agnostic?) I disagree with both of these statements.

As a Protestant Christian I disagree with both of Saquist's statements too.
(For the first time ever, I think we agree on something EC )

[Saquist]

Originally Posted by horatio

I agree that specific criticism cannot be too harsh in the case of sexual abuse and the cover-up.
But your general criticism of Catholicism doesn't achieve anything. When I was a kid, ......One has to find the common ground and not emphasize the differences.

Oh I disagree in a large way. The rap sheet of Catholicism is quite long ranging from instigating religious war, complicity with the Axis Power and now this which we've been dealing with it for quite a time longer than the members want to accept.

Consider that this is supposed to be a representation of God's government in heaven here on the Earth. God's cardinal attributes are represented by "The Four Living Creatures" that enclose his throne, The Bull, The Man, The Eagle, The Lion: Strength, Love, Wisdom and Nobility or Justice.
So over the past 1,500 years. Mistakes are a given but would you count these as minor lapses in Wisdom or Justice?

Some one, I believe, Janway, said all of humanity makes such mistakes.
Do any of you believe that all of humanity represents God?
If so then how do you stay in harmony with Jesus who said the "Kingdom" he represents "is no part of this world"? How do you resolve this carelessness and apathy with the "Love" that christians are supposed to be known for?

Is reducing the perfect nobility of God's government down to the lowest possible human denominator really the proper representation of his ideals? Are they not meant to be higher if not significantly higher?

Originally Posted by kevin

All the rationalising in the world (headlines etc) still absolutely fails to make up for the systematic protection afforded to the guilty by said Church.

Of course it's horrible when anyone does it, of course it's also been covered up in other institutions and of course we all have a touch of faux moral outrage about us all - and of course the Church is a popular target for the media (it shouldn't be above any criticism anyway) but let's not forget it's culpability and it doesn't deserve a get out of jail card by way of diverting the attention back onto those who exposed it's behaviour in the first place.

It's in this mess because it protected the guilty across decades and all the diffusion in the world really doesn't change that.

I certainly do have a sense of outrage about this. I can accept that individuals are capable of anything but with these numbers, these staggering numbers of abuse cases in every country. 450 cases alone in Los Angeles. 100 abuses...by one man in Fall River. 200 deaf boys abused in Wesconsin.

These are American samples. Most of these are allegations or cases but this is the largest Christian organization in the world of 1 billion members and thousands of priest. To put these cases in terms of percentages complete undermines the numbers we're talking about. The numbers are staggering. Instead of a firm hand the church let this become an epidemic that is bankrupting churches every where.

I for one am not willing to look at the organization, this culture that is professing to be ordained by God...look at these cover-ups and in one sweeping motion concluded: It's the same amount as every other insitution. It shouldn't be like ...every other institution.

[janeway72]

Are you trying to tell me that no one in the Protestant Church or in any other faith is a child abuser? Don't get me wrong, the people who covered it up are as culpable as the perpetrators of these crimes. If I used the word "mistake" then I was wrong because abusing children is not a mistake, it is a crime and a heinous one at that.

There are people in top jobs in the Catholic Church who have clearly been wrong, possibly naive, and in some cases criminal. But that does not mean that the entire Church is corrupt or that individuals are not living up to the expectations of God. In the same way, everyone who works in a bank is not responsible for the financial collapse.

Yes, I agree that Christians are supposed to live moral lives and are supposed to follow God's commands. Are Westboro Baptist Church living out God's commands when they are causing further distress to bereaved relatives at the funeral of US sevice men? Are Protestant Christians living out God's ideal when they threaten to bomb abortion clinics. Is Pat Robertson showing love for his enemies when he states on national TV that Haiti deserved what it got when an earthquake strike. As a very famous religious leader once said: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!"

[Saquist]

Originally Posted by janeway72

Are you trying to tell me that no one in the Protestant Church or in any other faith is a child abuser? Don't get me wrong, the people who covered it up are as culpable as the perpetrators of these crimes. If I used the word "mistake" then I was wrong because abusing children is not a mistake, it is a crime and a heinous one at that.

There are people in top jobs in the Catholic Church who have clearly been wrong, possibly naive, and in some cases criminal. But that does not mean that the entire Church is corrupt or that individuals are not living up to the expectations of God. In the same way, everyone who works in a bank is not responsible for the financial collapse.

Yes, I agree that Christians are supposed to live moral lives and are supposed to follow God's commands. Are Westboro Baptist Church living out God's commands when they are causing further distress to bereaved relatives at the funeral of US sevice men? Are Protestant Christians living out God's ideal when they threaten to bomb abortion clinics. Is Pat Robertson showing love for his enemies when he states on national TV that Haiti deserved what it got when an earthquake strike. As a very famous religious leader once said: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!"

Of course I am not saying Catholics are the only molestors in churchers. In my very last post I acknowledged that by comparison. I have NO tolerance for child abuse of any kind and I'd hope for a similar reaction from anyone, I know TOO MANY victims of these kind of crimes, it changes a life forever, any chance to be normal is gone. As a child of this kind of physical abuse I refuse to stand by and do and say nothing as the abusers are protected by a corupt system of religion. Don't expect me to give an abuser and his enabler sympathy.

Looking away is a crime. It is neglence. These are not isolated cases the facts prove that. This is systmatic of the church. Janway, that is too many kids, too many kids! It's too many priest, to many commiting the crime and too many looking the other way and the most unbelievable stat is that the numbers of those looking away are 4x of that or more of the abusers. They either weren't instructed properly, were told to look the other way or took it upon themselves and it's highly unlikely even half of these priest looking the other way did so of their own initiative. It's understood. There isn't a memo you'll find for relocating these priest. But it was done and it was done repeatedly to where they went right back into contact with children. Discusting.

Why didn't they stop it?
Why did it have to become public knowledge from them to take action?
Look at the number of people enabling these abusers, you're saying they're opperating under HOLLY SPIRIT? Is that what you're telling me?

[TheTrekkie]

Originally Posted by horatio

The problems of Rome are obvious and one cannot deny a potential connection between celibacy, sexual neuroses and sexual abuse ... but they hardly justify general Catholic bashing.

However I don't think there is any direct, causal connection between celibacy and child abuse. Monks e.g. live in celibacy and you barely hear any scandals from them.
And there are a lot of single men who don't have anyone besides themselves (unwillingly living in a small "celibacy") and though don't start raping women. Sexual abuse often goes further than just satisfying your sexual drive, sometimes that's even just a side effect, sexual abuse is more about violence and power.

However there is an indirect connections. Of course where celibacy is normal it is a good place to hide for all those who have no good answer on "You still haven't found a wife?"
And places like residential schoos, churchly or not, are a good place for these people to easily come close to children without being watched.

Jesus would never condone this "silly my church is better than your church" or "my religion is better than your religion" stuff.

"For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

I don't think he would say a lot of good things about organized religion at all.

[janeway72]

Of course they are not operating under the Holy Spirit but where do you get your number of 4x the number of people standing by and letting it happen?

I don't think anyone on this thread has said or even implied that child abuse or allowing child abuse to happen is acceptable, moral or legal. I think we are all pretty much on the same wavelength on that one. I think everyone has agreed that those who knew about it should be dealt with severely.

However, you make sweeping generalisations about the whole Catholic Church. That is unfair on the tens of millions of honest, law abiding Roman Catholics. The Church is the people of God, it is not the institution. I do believe that there are those in high up positions in the Church who had no knowledge of individual events and there are those who did. And those who did know should be called to account.

[TheTrekkie]

Originally Posted by janeway72

However, you make sweeping generalisations about the whole Catholic Church. That is unfair on the tens of millions of honest, law abiding Roman Catholics. The Church is the people of God, it is not the institution. I do believe that there are those in high up positions in the Church who had no knowledge of individual events and there are those who did. And those who did know should be called to account.

However many of the Catholic teaches are quite clearly in oposite to the bible.

But that doesn't mean it is dangerous or its believers are automatically bad!

It's just not correct, the Catholic Church in many aspects is a lot like the Pharisee in the bible. There are many rituals and traditions that are oposite to Jesus teachings. Now they are not dangerous anymore, in the past they were used by the mighty to strengthen their position and justify violence, supression etc.pp.

[Enterprise Captain]

Originally Posted by janeway72

As a Protestant Christian I disagree with both of Saquist's statements too.
(For the first time ever, I think we agree on something EC )

Would you look at that.

Originally Posted by janeway72

you make sweeping generalisations about the whole Catholic Church. That is unfair on the tens of millions of honest, law abiding Roman Catholics.

In Saquist's defense I believe he was talking about the people that actually run the institution of the Catholic Church not its followers. Saquist please correct me if I'm wrong.

Originally Posted by TheTrekkie

However many of the Catholic teaches are quite clearly in oposite to the bible.

But that doesn't mean it is dangerous or its believers are automatically bad!

It's just not correct, the Catholic Church in many aspects is a lot like the Pharisee in the bible. There are many rituals and traditions that are oposite to Jesus teachings. Now they are not dangerous anymore, in the past they were used by the mighty to strengthen their position and justify violence, supression etc.pp.

You make a good point and this is what I find interesting. When you ask many followers of the Catholic faith what they believe many of them are opposed to things the Catholic faith preaches but they call themselves Catholic because they were raised in that faith.

[janeway72]

Originally Posted by TheTrekkie

However many of the Catholic teaches are quite clearly in oposite to the bible.

But that doesn't mean it is dangerous or its believers are automatically bad!

It's just not correct, the Catholic Church in many aspects is a lot like the Pharisee in the bible. There are many rituals and traditions that are oposite to Jesus teachings. Now they are not dangerous anymore, in the past they were used by the mighty to strengthen their position and justify violence, supression etc.pp.

That's because the Catholic Church teaches that Church tradition is as important as the Bible. I don't agree with all that Catholicism teaches and their teaching about the use of condoms is downright dangerous.

There are plenty of people in the Protestant Church who can be likened to the Pharisees and Sadducees. The Church, both Protestant and Catholic wielded a lot of power for a long time. The institutions may be corrupt but the majority of the people who are members of the Christian faith are just trying their best to live Christian lives. I agree with what you said earlier, Jesus probably would not be a fan of organised religion.