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  #11  
Old 03-31-2010, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Livingston View Post
The thing that really got me about the conflict is that no human nor romulan ever met. I don't see how that's possible. Okay, certainly for space battles I could buy it, but at some point there must be ground forces, at some point you must put boots on the ground to secure planets and no human or romulan coming face to face in such a conflict seems far fetched. Yet Spock explicitly says so and it's evident in Kirk and crews' reactions when they get a glimpse of the romulans in BOT.
I think that probably presupposes gaining control of planets was an objective of the war. If you aren't really interested in gaining control of a planet and are just content with destroying the enemy presence on it then you can certain just nuke the planet from orbit and just move on.

I actually kind of question if the war was really a very large scale war like what we see in the Dominion War or something much smaller. If it was a large scale war, I'd find the likelihood of either side not seeing each other rather difficult to believe. Instead I can see something on a smaller scale like the Quasi-War from 1798-1900 between the United States and France. That war was almost exclusively fought at sea. Most of the battles were small and often involved privateers instead of just regular navy warships. The war was essentially a conflict over freedom of the seas. France had began seizing or attacking American merchant ships heading to Britain, the British later would do the same to American merchant ships heading to France. At the time the war was starting, the United States Navy didn't exist. The only maritime service the United States had at the time was the United States Revenue Cutter Service (present day US Coast Guard). As French privateers increased their attacks, Congress authorized the creation of the United States Navy. So much of the combat capable ships supplied while the US Navy was being built were provided by the Revenue Cutter Service. Overall, the combat during that war was light, with only a few notable engagements between capitol ships. Losses for the US Navy were light with only one armed US Navy ship lost in combat, but it's estimated that by the end of the war France had seized over 2000 American merchant ships.

The Earth Romulan War might have really started out with the Romulans harassing merchant ships, in much the same way we see in ENT with the drone ship. From there Earth and its allies mobilized their forces. After that the war might have simply been confined to an area of space that was vital to shipping between Earth and its allies. Not a particularly spectacular war, but still a state of war none the less. There probably weren't many large battles. Even in full blown wars, large naval battles are generally few and far between and it's not unheard of for a 4 year long war to go on with only 2 major naval battles. Chances are, Earth and its allies had ships patrolling the area, the Romulans had ships patrolling in search of merchant ships to attack. One on one skirmishes were probably common, maybe a few squadron battles here and there. Then maybe once or twice you had what might have been a major fleet action like the Battle of Cheron. Major fleet actions are very risky since both sides have to commit huge portions of their standing fleet.

It's not out of the realm of possibility to have a war without ground engagements, but chances are if you run with the idea that there were no ground engagements then you probably end up reducing the scope of the conflict. I think the Star Trek Space Flight Chronology has a more grand view of the war, I personally think the conflict itself may have been a lot less interesting than the events leading up to it, especially if we take ENT with Earth having very few capital ships of its own to begin with as well as Vulcan reducing its fleet size. Overall, you can play with it just about anyway you want considering how little information there is on the event that can be agreed upon as fact.
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Last edited by Akula2ssn : 03-31-2010 at 07:14 AM.
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  #12  
Old 03-31-2010, 08:37 AM
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ENT implied that there aren't any Earth colonies besides Terra Nova outside of the Sol system yet, so the Romulans aren't interested in gaining territory (I imagine that they want to eradicate Earth, the uniting force, the glue of the four species). And if there is no fight for territory, there is no need for ground battles.
But they might be interested in gaining Vulcan, Andorian or Tellarite space and even without a territorial conflict, a planet might have large strategic importance such that it is fortified with ground forces. In this case the Romulams might have used Remans as infantry and Spock's statement would still be correct.
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  #13  
Old 03-31-2010, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Akula2ssn View Post
I think that probably presupposes gaining control of planets was an objective of the war. If you aren't really interested in gaining control of a planet and are just content with destroying the enemy presence on it then you can certain just nuke the planet from orbit and just move on.

I actually kind of question if the war was really a very large scale war like what we see in the Dominion War or something much smaller. If it was a large scale war, I'd find the likelihood of either side not seeing each other rather difficult to believe. Instead I can see something on a smaller scale like the Quasi-War from 1798-1900 between the United States and France. That war was almost exclusively fought at sea. Most of the battles were small and often involved privateers instead of just regular navy warships. The war was essentially a conflict over freedom of the seas. France had began seizing or attacking American merchant ships heading to Britain, the British later would do the same to American merchant ships heading to France. At the time the war was starting, the United States Navy didn't exist. The only maritime service the United States had at the time was the United States Revenue Cutter Service (present day US Coast Guard). As French privateers increased their attacks, Congress authorized the creation of the United States Navy. So much of the combat capable ships supplied while the US Navy was being built were provided by the Revenue Cutter Service. Overall, the combat during that war was light, with only a few notable engagements between capitol ships. Losses for the US Navy were light with only one armed US Navy ship lost in combat, but it's estimated that by the end of the war France had seized over 2000 American merchant ships.

The Earth Romulan War might have really started out with the Romulans harassing merchant ships, in much the same way we see in ENT with the drone ship. From there Earth and its allies mobilized their forces. After that the war might have simply been confined to an area of space that was vital to shipping between Earth and its allies. Not a particularly spectacular war, but still a state of war none the less. There probably weren't many large battles. Even in full blown wars, large naval battles are generally few and far between and it's not unheard of for a 4 year long war to go on with only 2 major naval battles. Chances are, Earth and its allies had ships patrolling the area, the Romulans had ships patrolling in search of merchant ships to attack. One on one skirmishes were probably common, maybe a few squadron battles here and there. Then maybe once or twice you had what might have been a major fleet action like the Battle of Cheron. Major fleet actions are very risky since both sides have to commit huge portions of their standing fleet.

It's not out of the realm of possibility to have a war without ground engagements, but chances are if you run with the idea that there were no ground engagements then you probably end up reducing the scope of the conflict. I think the Star Trek Space Flight Chronology has a more grand view of the war, I personally think the conflict itself may have been a lot less interesting than the events leading up to it, especially if we take ENT with Earth having very few capital ships of its own to begin with as well as Vulcan reducing its fleet size. Overall, you can play with it just about anyway you want considering how little information there is on the event that can be agreed upon as fact.
I concur.
The STSFC only gives three conflicts (I think for the Romulan War and a 3 year duration) I (as most know) like the idea presented here. 2 or 3 major conflicts and many minor conflicts. It was portrayed as a war of great sacrifice.





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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
ENT implied that there aren't any Earth colonies besides Terra Nova outside of the Sol system yet, so the Romulans aren't interested in gaining territory (I imagine that they want to eradicate Earth, the uniting force, the glue of the four species). And if there is no fight for territory, there is no need for ground battles.
But they might be interested in gaining Vulcan, Andorian or Tellarite space and even without a territorial conflict, a planet might have large strategic importance such that it is fortified with ground forces. In this case the Romulams might have used Remans as infantry and Spock's statement would still be correct.
The STSFC says the war started with a sneak attack and the destruction of Starbase One.

I projected that while their may not have been colonies there might have been outpost for which to wage war which eventually become colonies in the future.
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  #14  
Old 03-31-2010, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Akula2ssn View Post
I think that probably presupposes gaining control of planets was an objective of the war. If you aren't really interested in gaining control of a planet and are just content with destroying the enemy presence on it then you can certain just nuke the planet from orbit and just move on.

I actually kind of question if the war was really a very large scale war like what we see in the Dominion War or something much smaller. If it was a large scale war, I'd find the likelihood of either side not seeing each other rather difficult to believe. Instead I can see something on a smaller scale like the Quasi-War from 1798-1900 between the United States and France. That war was almost exclusively fought at sea. Most of the battles were small and often involved privateers instead of just regular navy warships. The war was essentially a conflict over freedom of the seas. France had began seizing or attacking American merchant ships heading to Britain, the British later would do the same to American merchant ships heading to France. At the time the war was starting, the United States Navy didn't exist. The only maritime service the United States had at the time was the United States Revenue Cutter Service (present day US Coast Guard). As French privateers increased their attacks, Congress authorized the creation of the United States Navy. So much of the combat capable ships supplied while the US Navy was being built were provided by the Revenue Cutter Service. Overall, the combat during that war was light, with only a few notable engagements between capitol ships. Losses for the US Navy were light with only one armed US Navy ship lost in combat, but it's estimated that by the end of the war France had seized over 2000 American merchant ships.

The Earth Romulan War might have really started out with the Romulans harassing merchant ships, in much the same way we see in ENT with the drone ship. From there Earth and its allies mobilized their forces. After that the war might have simply been confined to an area of space that was vital to shipping between Earth and its allies. Not a particularly spectacular war, but still a state of war none the less. There probably weren't many large battles. Even in full blown wars, large naval battles are generally few and far between and it's not unheard of for a 4 year long war to go on with only 2 major naval battles. Chances are, Earth and its allies had ships patrolling the area, the Romulans had ships patrolling in search of merchant ships to attack. One on one skirmishes were probably common, maybe a few squadron battles here and there. Then maybe once or twice you had what might have been a major fleet action like the Battle of Cheron. Major fleet actions are very risky since both sides have to commit huge portions of their standing fleet.

It's not out of the realm of possibility to have a war without ground engagements, but chances are if you run with the idea that there were no ground engagements then you probably end up reducing the scope of the conflict. I think the Star Trek Space Flight Chronology has a more grand view of the war, I personally think the conflict itself may have been a lot less interesting than the events leading up to it, especially if we take ENT with Earth having very few capital ships of its own to begin with as well as Vulcan reducing its fleet size. Overall, you can play with it just about anyway you want considering how little information there is on the event that can be agreed upon as fact.
Dang! you beat me to the punch!

I was just about to bring in that we may be making a grander conflict out of the war than really was the case.
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  #15  
Old 03-31-2010, 09:26 AM
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I agree that the scale of the war is most likely fairly small, but I also think that it was a very deadly conflict. The Admiral in TNG's "The Defector" said something like "the Romulans felt humiliated after their defeat" so it was definitely more than a mere skirmish.
If they attack Earth and its allies, they might already have had plans to occupy Vulcan, the old Romulan dream of getting rid (be it via killing or subjugating) of their distant peaceful relatives.

Last edited by horatio : 03-31-2010 at 09:32 AM.
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  #16  
Old 03-31-2010, 10:06 AM
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I wouldn't be surprised if what eventually happened was a Midway type invasion that went bad for the Romulans. Lost too many capitol ships in a single fleet action forcing them to call off the planned invasion. They might not have had the ability to replace the ships and crew lost in a reasonable amount of time and were forced to negotiate.
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  #17  
Old 03-31-2010, 10:07 AM
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A small war wouldn't have led to the Federation agreeing to give up cloaking technology. It was a war that shaped the galaxy, I imagine it was a very large scale war. This is more a matter of different writers having different takes on it, and fans trying to reconcile the fact that Enterprise shows us a very different state of affairs than what Spock describes in TOS.
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Old 03-31-2010, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Akula2ssn View Post
I wouldn't be surprised if what eventually happened was a Midway type invasion that went bad for the Romulans. Lost too many capitol ships in a single fleet action forcing them to call off the planned invasion. They might not have had the ability to replace the ships and crew lost in a reasonable amount of time and were forced to negotiate.
Agreed - a single incident or encounter could have done it. In fact, given the general Romulan ideology (which has sometimes favoured self-sacrifice if no victory is possible - BoT and Unification) then even one major defeat could have been enough to humiliate the Romulans so badly they never forgot it.

Maybe Earth gave them their first real defeat even.

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Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin View Post
A small war wouldn't have led to the Federation agreeing to give up cloaking technology. It was a war that shaped the galaxy, I imagine it was a very large scale war. This is more a matter of different writers having different takes on it, and fans trying to reconcile the fact that Enterprise shows us a very different state of affairs than what Spock describes in TOS.
It depends on the importance ascribed to cloaking technology by the Federation and/or it's relative feasability at the time.

Yes, it's a strategic advantage and yes it's useful in combat but both of those run counter to the general (at least the 23rd anyway) approach Starfleet and Earth took to such matters at the time.

Although GR once made the joke that it was because the Federation 'doesn't sneak around' it was probably a joke with a grain of truth in it. Also, numeorus ways to circumvent cloaking technology have been developed, rendering it's overall effectiveness rather less absolute than it is in theory.

The upshot being of course - we just don't know!
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  #19  
Old 03-31-2010, 10:21 AM
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It was a major concession, there is no way around that
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  #20  
Old 03-31-2010, 10:33 AM
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But yet it never hampered or prevented Federation activity, expansion nor dominance in the Alpha Quadrant.
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