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Old 03-11-2010, 05:02 AM
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Default 2166 According to Spock

"...As you recall from your histories, this conflict was fought, by our standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels which allowed no quarter, no captives. Nor was there even ship-to-ship, visual communication; therefore, no human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other. Earth believes the Romulans to be warlike, cruel, treacherous... and only the Romulans know what they think of Earth. The treaty, sent by subspace radio, established this Neutral Zone, entry into which by either side would constitute an act of war. The treaty has been unbroken since that time..."


Imagine what these ships were like.
According to Spock
-they had atomics they
-had no room for captives
-No room for crew (likely the numbers of 400 individuals was impossible).
-No visual communication

This list implies some other things.
I made this List from inference.

-Limited fuel
-Limited provisions
-Crews of a dozen or less
-No Transporter
-No Shuttlepods
-Primitive lasers
-Delayed FTL (due to charging)
-Fast ships but very small.
-Slow acceleration
-Ships heavy in armor

I wondered what a space battle, one on one would be like.
Perhaps it was very, very sub like. Without shields a direct hit by a nuclear warhead would kill the crew instantly leaving the ship only marginally damaged.

Maybe tactics would involve dropping from warp on top of your objective and striking with a Nuclear bombardment provided your inelligence was accurate because you couldn't see your target without FTL sensors. Maybe then had them but they were extremely short range.

With limited fuel you likely had a limited time to prosecute your objective depending on if you were fast attack ship designed to hold the Frontline for a limited time and return or...if your objective to was to strike at the very heart of the enemy...it's home planet. I think there would have been only a few of these resource hogs. They have to have lots of fuel and stores to stay out on the frontier and wait for an opening and likely they weren't very fast. Yet I bet they would be heavily armored. These ships couldn't be disabled by a crew killing radiation burst. They'd need multiple bombardments and laser strafes to bring down

*Those would terrifying ships compared with the average fast light attack ship.

I imagine the war was fought over certain planets because some sort of self sufficient way station would necessary to keep the front line resupplied with provisions. It may have been a Starbase for either side.

If they were fighting over a planet I doubt they'd take many marines...bombardment would be the only answer with tactical nukes are conventional explosives. Expending the money to get that many people there just to die would be wasteful.

It would have been a long ...and evil conflict with alot of deaths and alot of derlict ships floating around in what would be the Neutral Zone. Of course Enterprise has changed everything but this is only a what if.


Last night I imagine these ships in combat and in tactics.
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Old 03-11-2010, 06:49 AM
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ENT didn't change everything as it did not portray the Romulan War.

It's not like Romulus is around the corner, so Romulans and Humans couldn't make contact (resp. come so close to each other that the Romulans feel threatened) without warp drive. As the Federation is founded after the war, humans must have been out there for some years and met Tellarites and Andorians.

In short, ENT makes perfect sense if you don't focus just on a few Spock lines but on the entire picture which includes first contact with the other three founding members of the Federation, the slow development of trust between them and the Romulans attempets to undermine this trust.

Furthermore Spock's statement only makes sense if there was a temporary technological regress during the war (before and afterwards warp technology is used). If the war is bloody, if the Romulan threaten to conquer Earth you don't need warp vessels, simple impulse drive will suffice. And H-bombs are probably simpler to produce than antimatter bombs aka photon torpedoes.
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Old 03-11-2010, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by horatio View Post
ENT didn't change everything as it did not portray the Romulan War.
ENT did change the perception of ships from the statement. That's the point of the thread, to give an imagining of what Spock meant by his statement...to visualize it in words.


Quote:
In short, ENT makes perfect sense if you don't focus just on a few Spock lines but on the entire picture which includes first contact with the other three founding members of the Federation, the slow development of trust between them and the Romulans attempets to undermine this trust.
The point of the thread is to visualize based on Spock's words.
If you want to force shove ENT into that feel free. But the point is the visualize and use your imagination.

Tell a story on how you think it goes.

Quote:
Furthermore Spock's statement only makes sense if there was a temporary technological regress during the war (before and afterwards warp technology is used). If the war is bloody, if the Romulan threaten to conquer Earth you don't need warp vessels, simple impulse drive will suffice. And H-bombs are probably simpler to produce than antimatter bombs aka photon torpedoes.
What do mean...impulse ships capable of warp?
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Old 03-11-2010, 07:41 AM
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Before the war, humans (as well as Vulcan, Tellarites and Andorians) must have warp drive, otherwise they wouldn't know each other or be a danger to the Romulans.
After the war, these four races found the Federation, implement defences among the neutral zone and explore space, so they use warp drive.

Spock's lines suggest that in between, i.e. during the war, technology is simpler. Yet humans have warp capability. So it has to be a free choice of a simpler technology, e.g. impulse ships with H-bombs instead of warp ships with photon torpedoes. Why?
The only reason I can imagine is that the war is, as you described, pretty ugly and bloody such that cheaper/faster to produce ships and weapons are chosen.
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Old 03-11-2010, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by horatio View Post
Before the war, humans (as well as Vulcan, Tellarites and Andorians) must have warp drive, otherwise they wouldn't know each other or be a danger to the Romulans.

Okay so the Federation had to exist right?
Because if there is a treaty then it must be with the organization that existed at the time...

But yes...they had to have warp speed...but not necessarily warp drive. Clearly the Romulans didn't have it because they still don't have it in Balance of Terror.

Quote:
After the war, these four races found the Federation, implement defences among the neutral zone and explore space, so they use warp drive.
So the treaty is with Earth..
So for you who fought the war Earth against Romulus or the Four races vs Romulus?

Quote:
Spock's lines suggest that in between, i.e. during the war, technology is simpler. Yet humans have warp capability. So it has to be a free choice of a simpler technology, e.g. impulse ships with H-bombs instead of warp ships with photon torpedoes. Why?
The only reason I can imagine is that the war is, as you described, pretty ugly and bloody such that cheaper/faster to produce ships and weapons are chosen.
So...scarcity of antimatter for instance and the relevance of Hydrogen and Deuterium?

So that means that the advanced ships were either destroyed at the outset like Columbia and Enterprise or rendered inoperable by the lack of said resources?
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Old 03-11-2010, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
Okay so the Federation had to exist right?
Because if there is a treaty then it must be with the organization that existed at the time...
The Romulan War as well as the foundation of the Federation has been set in the middle of the 22nd century, but it is just vague background info of a few episodes.


Quote:
But yes...they had to have warp speed...but not necessarily warp drive. Clearly the Romulans didn't have it because they still don't have it in Balance of Terror.
Thanks, I didn't know that. But it makes perfect sense, on the map in Balance of Terror the neutral zone is fairly close to Romulus. Perhaps because humans took a good piece of Romulan space after the war? Perhaps that's why the Romulans consider the defeat as such a humiliation, they have not merely lost the war but also a good piece of territory?


Quote:
So the treaty is with Earth..
So for you who fought the war Earth against Romulus or the Four races vs Romulus?
In my opinion this is one of the most important questions. If humans fought alone, why is the UFP created after the war? If they fight together with the other three races, why is it called Earth-Romulan War?
If I may speculate, perhaps the Romulans attacked humankind but made it look like the humans struck first, * la Gulf of Tonkin. Vulcans, Andorians and Tellarites ended whatever alliance existed with humankind, humans had to fight on their own, the war was devastating, Romulan victory is imminent ... and when the three races learn the truth about the Romulan sneak attack, they help the humans and drive the Romulans back to where they came from.


Quote:
So...scarcity of antimatter for instance and the relevance of Hydrogen and Deuterium?

So that means that the advanced ships were either destroyed at the outset like Columbia and Enterprise or rendered inoperable by the lack of said resources?
Yep, that's what I would say. Antimatter is synthesized and there has to be an energy loss in the process. So using fusion power might be the better choice in war times.
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Old 03-11-2010, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by horatio View Post
ENT didn't change everything as it did not portray the Romulan War.

It's not like Romulus is around the corner, so Romulans and Humans couldn't make contact (resp. come so close to each other that the Romulans feel threatened) without warp drive. As the Federation is founded after the war, humans must have been out there for some years and met Tellarites and Andorians.

In short, ENT makes perfect sense if you don't focus just on a few Spock lines but on the entire picture which includes first contact with the other three founding members of the Federation, the slow development of trust between them and the Romulans attempets to undermine this trust.

Furthermore Spock's statement only makes sense if there was a temporary technological regress during the war (before and afterwards warp technology is used). If the war is bloody, if the Romulan threaten to conquer Earth you don't need warp vessels, simple impulse drive will suffice. And H-bombs are probably simpler to produce than antimatter bombs aka photon torpedoes.
ENT doesn't really even contradict that so much either. If we have a think about the number and style of ships they have.

As the war was fought with ships - well, in five seasons of ENT Earth had only built two NX ships. They don't have hundreds of them to field in battle. That's not going to last very long in a war so probably it was also fought using older Earth ships as well. Which may have been armed with more primitive weaponry.

Also Spock says nothing that proves those ships don't have Warp Drive at all. But a more primitive ship then may only have had a speed of Warp 2 etc. The Warp 5 engine wasn't in every ship. Also bear in mind Spock will be referring to primitive by the 23rd Century - he says 'by our standards today' aka 2266 - in the actual time of the war it may be those ships were contemporary.

Ones which could fit the description Spock used.

Although I'm not the biggest ENT fan, there's actually not a massive amount of contradiction between Spock's words (which as a summary are also hardly definitive of a complete war) and how ENT presented the Star Trek universe when it left it.
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Old 03-11-2010, 10:31 AM
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I also think that ENT nicely mixed together the background info of previous stories and that it didn't violate continuity (not that I would care) en masse, one instance of two Romulan Bird of Preys who could cloak excepted.
But then again the war hasn't been shown and perhaps it is better this way, a myth is often more interesting than the reality (or rather fictional reality, a strange word, in this case).
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Old 03-12-2010, 08:02 PM
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That''s probably true...that myths are best left visualized....
Maybe our perception of that conflict will always be grander than anything else.
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Old 03-31-2010, 01:20 AM
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The thing that really got me about the conflict is that no human nor romulan ever met. I don't see how that's possible. Okay, certainly for space battles I could buy it, but at some point there must be ground forces, at some point you must put boots on the ground to secure planets and no human or romulan coming face to face in such a conflict seems far fetched. Yet Spock explicitly says so and it's evident in Kirk and crews' reactions when they get a glimpse of the romulans in BOT.
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