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  #261  
Old 01-12-2010, 09:19 AM
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These are valid points and I have no problem when someone believes that religious people are delusional. I have a lot of issues when someone claims to know that they are, that's scientific arrogance.
I am sure that Mr.Dawkins is a great scientist and that he even writes some interesting stuff in this book, but just like I have no interest in wasting my time with what creationists write, I will not waste my time with what the other extremists write.
You're going in circles. Dawkins isn't claiming people who believe in God are delusional he is stating for the sake of debate that a belief in God is a delusion and here is why. Like I said before in a debate you need to take a stance. If Dawkins says a belief in God maybe a delusion, I can say maybe it isn't and that's the end of the debate. If you read past the preface of the book and get in to the "here is why" you may find that Dawkins makes some reasonable arguments. Dawkins reasoning comes from his knowledge of science as well as other things. Dawkins doesn't end the book with the conclusion that he is 100% percent certain a belief in God is a delusion therefore God is a delusion as you and janeway72 assume he does, it's up to the reader to come to their own conclusion. I wouldn't put Dawkins on one end of a spectrum that has creationists on the other side because creationists try to alter science to suit their arguments but I'm pretty sure Dawkins's science is accurate. I'm curious how you came to your conclusion that God most likely doesn't exists? You said:

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I don't believe in God, I have read more scientific than religious stuff.
If that's the only reason then I say you aren't giving religion a fare chance and maybe you should read some more religious stuff to balance it out with the science stuff you have read or did you use scientific reasoning and your knowledge of the world around you to come to that conclusion just like someone could conclude Santa Claus most likely doesn't exist?
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  #262  
Old 01-12-2010, 09:40 AM
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[color=black][color=silver]You're going in circles. Dawkins isn't claiming people who believe in God are delusional he is stating for the sake of debate that a belief in God is a delusion and here is why. Like I said before in a debate you need to take a stance. If Dawkins says a belief in God maybe a delusion, I can say maybe it isn't and that's the end of the debate. If you read past the preface of the book and get in to the "here is why" you may find that Dawkins makes some reasonable arguments. Dawkins reasoning comes from his knowledge of science as well as other things. Dawkins doesn't end the book with the conclusion that he is 100% percent certain a belief in God is a delusion therefore God is a delusion as you and janeway72 assume he does, it's up to the reader to come to their own conclusion. I wouldn't put Dawkins on one end of a spectrum that has creationists on the other side because creationists try to alter science to suit their arguments but I'm pretty sure Dawkins's science is accurate. I'm curious how you came to your conclusion that God most likely doesn't exists?
OK, assuming I am not delusional, I believe in something there is no scientific proof for. I totally agree with that. Dawkins, OTOH, believes that God doesn't exist but he has absolutely no scientific proof that God does not exist. So how does that make God a delusion? Until he has scientific evidence that God doesn't exist then he cannot claim that God is a delusion.

I also believe there is life on other planets. The only reason I believe that is it is difficult to believe we are alone and the only planet among billions that could support life. I have no scientific proof. Does that make extra-terrestrial life a delusion or a possibility?
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  #263  
Old 01-12-2010, 09:52 AM
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You're going in circles. Dawkins isn't claiming people who believe in God are delusional he is stating for the sake of debate that a belief in God is a delusion and here is why. Like I said before in a debate you need to take a stance. If Dawkins says a belief in God maybe a delusion, I can say maybe it isn't and that's the end of the debate. If you read past the preface of the book and get in to the "here is why" you may find that Dawkins makes some reasonable arguments. Dawkins reasoning comes from his knowledge of science as well as other things. Dawkins doesn't end the book with the conclusion that he is 100% percent certain a belief in God is a delusion therefore God is a delusion as you and janeway72 assume he does, it's up to the reader to come to their own conclusion. I wouldn't put Dawkins on one end of a spectrum that has creationists on the other side because creationists try to alter science to suit their arguments but I'm pretty sure Dawkins's science is accurate. I'm curious how you came to your conclusion that God most likely doesn't exists? You said:
What the f**K? I never said that "God most likely does not exist", I only said that I don't believe in God. Belief - religion, probabilities - science. This cannot be so hard, can it?
Any religious stuff is just a personal truth and that's where Mr.Dawkins as well as you seriously err. Claiming that other people are delusional just because they believe in God is crazy, arrogant and stupid.

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If that's the only reason then I say you aren't giving religion a fare chance and maybe you should read some more religious stuff to balance it out with the science stuff you have read or did you use scientific reasoning and your knowledge of the world around you to come to that conclusion just like someone could conclude Santa Claus most likely doesn't exist?
You repeat Mr.Dawkins error. My loss of faith happened while I was a teenager, quite some years before I went to the university. For the zillionth time, science and religion are two clearly seperated and complementary realms of our culture. That's precisely why you cannot analyze one with the tools of the other. One cannot prove or disprove or attribute likelihoods to a concept like God which is inherently improvable and one can neither sell religion as pseudo-science like the creationists try to do.
Whether you like it or not, Dawkins is the mirror of his enemies. Happens quite frequently, e.g. the folks who lead war against terror have become more like their enemies in the process.

Quite funny that you tell me than I am not giving religion a fair chance by the way.
I might not believe in God but that doesn't give me the right to call other people who do delusional. And calling other people delusional just for the sake of argument is a poor excuse. It hardly starts a debate, it is mere bashing.

Perhaps I might add that there is a way one can talk scientifically about religion, one can analyze for example how the notion of God and Gods differs among cultures and has changed over time. That's quite interesting but it is of uttermost importance that the working assumption, that God is a human concept, doesn't imply that God doesn't exist.



It's an idea that is very real to many people, as real as anything else.

Last edited by horatio : 01-12-2010 at 10:04 AM.
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  #264  
Old 01-12-2010, 10:14 AM
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Oh, oh! The 'God Thing' again. This should be worth a few hundred posts!
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  #265  
Old 01-12-2010, 10:20 AM
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Well it's already at 265 posts
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  #266  
Old 01-12-2010, 12:14 PM
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Before we continue, may I introduce some good friends of mine?

Here's Mr. Comma -------- ,
Here's Mr. Period -------- .
Here's Mr. Semi-Colon ----- ;

Use them! My head hurts after too many run on sentances.
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  #267  
Old 01-12-2010, 12:39 PM
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janeway72 janeway72 is offline
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Before we continue, may I introduce some good friends of mine?

Here's Mr. Comma -------- ,
Here's Mr. Period -------- .
Here's Mr. Semi-Colon ----- ;

Use them! My head hurts after too many run on sentances.
It's difficult to punctuate when you are in high dudgeon, you know
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  #268  
Old 01-13-2010, 05:06 AM
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We must speak well if we are to say things worth reading/listening to. Otherwise if we just write like this and keep going on and on it's like that sentance in Winnie-the-Pooh that just keeps going on and on like one of Grandpa Simpson's stories until the reader can't begin to remember what the sentance is about much less when it began.
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  #269  
Old 01-13-2010, 11:47 AM
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Well, I read the first chapter of The God Delusion and.... that's half an hour of my life I am not going to get back . And (as Forrest Gump says), that's all I have to say about that!
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  #270  
Old 01-13-2010, 12:17 PM
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OK, assuming I am not delusional, I believe in something there is no scientific proof for. I totally agree with that. Dawkins, OTOH, believes that God doesn't exist but he has absolutely no scientific proof that God does not exist. So how does that make God a delusion? Until he has scientific evidence that God doesn't exist then he cannot claim that God is a delusion.
No one has 100% scientific proof that God exists or doesn't exist so what does that leave us with? That leaves us with nothing so then technically the debate should be over but it's not, why? Because we have evidence of Gods existence with in the holly books. For the sake of this discussion lets use the Bible because that is what we are both more familiar with as we were both raised as Christians. The Bible tells us about God, Jesus etc. and events that took place in the past Noah's Ark etc. Does the Bible claim those people and events took place in a fictional universe or in the real world, our universe? Obviously it's the latter or else the debate would be over at that point. So if the Bible is making claims about our universe then it is only fair that it is subject to the laws of our universe therefore science comes in to play. This is where the whole science vs. religion debate comes from.

What Dawkins has done is weighed the evidence presented by both sides and come to a conclusion. He presents his conclusion and how he came to it in his book "The God Delusion." It's up to the reader to then look at Dawkins argument and evidence vs. Religions argument and evidence and then come to their own conclusion based on which argument is more plausible in respect to the evidence. If we knew with 100% certainty God exists or he/she/it doesn't then there would be no debate.

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I also believe there is life on other planets. The only reason I believe that is it is difficult to believe we are alone and the only planet among billions that could support life. I have no scientific proof. Does that make extra-terrestrial life a delusion or a possibility?
There is also evidence to show it is plausible for life to exist on other planets and we are finding more all the time. We just found ice on the Moon and on Mars. You said faith is illogical and that's because it doesn't require someone to weigh the evidence, all you have to do is believe.
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