The Official Star Trek Movie Forum

The Official Star Trek Movie Forum > Star Trek > Off Topic Discussions > Most Annoying Person of 2009
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #251  
Old 01-11-2010, 11:18 AM
janeway72's Avatar
janeway72 janeway72 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Federation Starship Voyager
Posts: 4,977
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiko Kea View Post
When I look up and see the universe spread above me, with its beauty and awe-inspiring laws of science, I see the way my Father made the universe.

For me, science is how our Creator made us and the world around us.
Hear hear!

Oh dear, my delusions are happening again
__________________

"Unless you have something a little bigger in your torpedo tubes, I'm not turning around!"
Reply With Quote
  #252  
Old 01-11-2010, 11:28 AM
Captain Tom Coughlin's Avatar
Captain Tom Coughlin Captain Tom Coughlin is offline
Fleet Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USS Meadowlands
Posts: 10,989
Default

What if God was one of us?
Just a slob like one of us?
Just a stranger on the bus
trying to make his way home
Nobody calling on the phone
Except for the Pope maybe in Rome
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #253  
Old 01-11-2010, 11:34 AM
janeway72's Avatar
janeway72 janeway72 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Federation Starship Voyager
Posts: 4,977
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain View Post
Read the quote again he is not saying religious people are all delusional he is saying God is the delusion. I have to correct what I previously said about the books title being a marketing ploy because the title of the book is spot on to the topic that is being discussed with in it but Dawkins still isn't saying all religious people are delusional. Anyway here is another quote from the book:
That is semantics. If someone is suffering from or believing in a delusion then they are delusional. In the same way if someone is suffering from psychosis then they are psychotic


Quote:
Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain View Post
Those aren't Dawkins words but Dawkins quotes Sam Harris a neurophilosopher an expert on God since only philosophers and theologians are allowed to debate Gods existence and it's pretty clear that Harris is saying religious people aren't delusional but that God is the delusion. Any way not reading the whole book to get the big picture of what is being said is not much different from those people using specific passages from the Bible and misitupreting them to justify doing something even though the majority know it is wrong. Maybe you should do like janeway72 and pick up a copy of the book from the library read it and until then I'm done discussing this with you.
Have you read Sam Harris's work or are you just quoting Dawkins. If you have not read Sam Harris's work then you clearly have done as little research into his opinion as I have done into Dawkins and therefore your arguments are as invalid as you claim mine to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain View Post
[color=silver]Just to clarify my position here before I go, Dawkins is not my God. I don't take everything the man says as truth. I just find some of his arguments interesting. I can't say God doesn't exist or he does exist I would never claim I can. I don't have a problem with people believing in God either, I have a problem with religion and the way it is run. If I have children there is no way I would baptize/indoctrinate them in to any faith when they can't even think for themselves yet. If they choose later on in life to join a faith it will be their choice and I won't have a problem with it. I want them to see all the options and then pick for themselves what they feel is right for them.
I have a problem with politics and the way it is run. But I bet you would discuss your political views with your children. Is that not indoctrination of some kind. I was taught by my parents that Santa, the tooth fairy and God all exist. When I got to the age to question these things I came to the conclusion that only God exists. Their indoctrination was clearly unsuccessful.
__________________

"Unless you have something a little bigger in your torpedo tubes, I'm not turning around!"
Reply With Quote
  #254  
Old 01-11-2010, 12:38 PM
Enterprise Captain's Avatar
Enterprise Captain Enterprise Captain is offline
Commander
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Toronto, ON Canada
Posts: 1,070
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by horatio View Post
Perhaps you might want to read the quote again, the word God doesn't appear in there.
Your right it doesn't, I apologize. Here is the quote again:
Quote:
"When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion" - Robert M. Pirsig
Here is my break down of the quote feel free to question me on it. I feel people need to be more specific when throwing around the word religion because it encompasses multiple things. There are religious intuitions, religious practices/traditions and religious beliefs. I might have missed something so I throw in etc. Religious intuitions are real and obviously not a delusion. People participate in religious practices/traditions i.e. Communion etc. so these are obviously not delusions. Then we get to religious beliefs. Each religion has it's own set of religious beliefs. In Christianity’s case Jesus and God are included in its religious beliefs. Someone may not believe in any particular religions beliefs but they can still believe in a God or a higher power so a belief in God can be separate from religious beliefs. Are religious beliefs or a belief in God or a higher power a delusion? I don't know but that is one debate put forth in "The God Delusion." I'm pretty sure that Robert M. Pirsig is saying is that the religious belief is the delusion not that the religious person is delusional. I'm also pretty sure that is also what Sam Harris the neurophilosopher is saying in the quote I posted earlier and I'm also pretty sure that is what Dawkins agrees with. Children believe in Santa Clause we don't call them delusional but clearly we know that such a belief is a delusion I mean heck we teach it to them so are we delusional for doing so? Maybe. I'm pretty sure Dawkins doesn't believe all religious people are delusional that is what I was arguing. Whether Dawkins, Robert M. Pirsig and Sam Harris argument is right I don't know. Anyway this is one debate brought up in "The God Delusion" there are a lot of other things Dawkins touches on. Like I said before Dawkins is not my God and "The God Delusion" is not my gospel I just think some of the things touched upon in the book are interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janeway72 View Post
That is semantics. If someone is suffering from or believing in a delusion then they are delusional. In the same way if someone is suffering from psychosis then they are psychotic
Like I said do we call children that believe in Santa Claus delusional though the belief clearly is? If you want to believe that Dawkins would come up to you and call you delusional you are free to believe that but I don't think he would.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janeway72 View Post
I didn't say he claims to be an expert on religion. I said he sets himself up as an expert. It is inferred by the title of his book. He uses science to make philosophical arguments and by using science he may confuse people into thinking he is right.
Is this not semantics? Is he Dawkins an expert or not? By the way I thought God was a matter of faith you believe or you don't so how can you be tricked in to not believing in God. Can you be tricked in to believing in God?
Quote:
Originally Posted by janeway72 View Post
Have you read Sam Harris's work or are you just quoting Dawkins. If you have not read Sam Harris's work then you clearly have done as little research into his opinion as I have done into Dawkins and therefore your arguments are as invalid as you claim mine to be.
No I haven't but I'm going to look in to. You said Dawkins's is work is invalid because he is not a theologian or philosopher so therefore my arguments are invalid because I'm neither. That's when I decided you read the book or I'm not going to bother discussing this with you. Is Sam Harris's work valid because he is a neurophilosopher? Which one is it or are we all on an equal playing field here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by janeway72 View Post
I have a problem with politics and the way it is run. But I bet you would discuss your political views with your children. Is that not indoctrination of some kind. I was taught by my parents that Santa, the tooth fairy and God all exist. When I got to the age to question these things I came to the conclusion that only God exists. Their indoctrination was clearly unsuccessful.
I wouldn't discuss politics with my children until they were old enough to understand the issues. I certainly wouldn’t have them join a political party just after they were born and I wouldn't tell them to have faith in political leaders I would tell them to question them.

Last edited by Enterprise Captain : 01-11-2010 at 12:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #255  
Old 01-11-2010, 01:04 PM
janeway72's Avatar
janeway72 janeway72 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Federation Starship Voyager
Posts: 4,977
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain View Post
Like I said do we call children that believe in Santa Claus delusional though the belief clearly is? If you want to believe that Dawkins would come up to you and call you delusional you are free to believe that but I don't think he would.
We lie to children and they are too young to think critically and work out that scientifically, someone could not visit every person on earth in the space of 36 hours. Adults are big enough and usually have the critical thinking skills to decide whether or not they believe in God

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain View Post
No I haven't but I'm going to look in to. You said Dawkins's is work is invalid because he is not a theologian or philosopher so therefore my arguments are invalid because I'm neither. That's when I decided you read the book or I'm not going to bother discussing this with you. Is Sam Harris's work valid because he is a neurophilosopher? Which one is it or are we all on an equal playing field here.
Tell me where I said his views were invalid. he can think what he likes and express what he likes but he is not an expert in the field of philosophy or religions - as is clear from his poor grasp of simple logic. He is an expert in Biology.

So you are allowed to quote and use in your arguments the writings of someone whose work you have not read, but I am not supposed to debate Richard Dawkins because I have only heard what he had to say on a TV programme and read a few of the articles on his website? That seems somewhat hypocritical, which is exactly what you are accusing me of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain View Post
I wouldn't discuss politics with my children until they were old enough to understand the issues. I certainly wouldn’t have them join a political party just after they were born and I wouldn't tell them to have faith in political leaders I would tell them to question them.
So should people who go to church hire babysitters so they can go to church and never let their kids see them pray or read their Bibles. You are part of your parents' culture whether you like it or not. Why do you think a child who is brought up in a home where the parent's have a faith are any less inquisitive or questioning about the world around them? Many of these children question their faith and then come back to the conclusion (along with the other 4 and a half billion people in the world) that God does exist and some don't.
__________________

"Unless you have something a little bigger in your torpedo tubes, I'm not turning around!"
Reply With Quote
  #256  
Old 01-11-2010, 02:49 PM
martok2112's Avatar
martok2112 martok2112 is offline
Fleet Admiral
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: River Ridge, LA
Posts: 6,480
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin View Post
What if God was one of us?
Just a slob like one of us?
Just a stranger on the bus
trying to make his way home
Nobody calling on the phone
Except for the Pope maybe in Rome
I'm just glad that God isn't Alanis Morissette.

(Now THAT would've been enough to make ME an Atheist)
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #257  
Old 01-11-2010, 04:48 PM
Enterprise Captain's Avatar
Enterprise Captain Enterprise Captain is offline
Commander
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Toronto, ON Canada
Posts: 1,070
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by janeway72 View Post
We lie to children and they are too young to think critically and work out that scientifically, someone could not visit every person on earth in the space of 36 hours. Adults are big enough and usually have the critical thinking skills to decide whether or not they believe in God
So someone can use scientific reasoning to come to the conclusion that their belief in Santa Claus is false but they can't do the same for God?

Quote:
Originally Posted by janeway72 View Post
Tell me where I said his views were invalid. he can think what he likes and express what he likes but he is not an expert in the field of philosophy or religions - as is clear from his poor grasp of simple logic. He is an expert in Biology.
Again Dawkins doesn't claim to be a philosopher or an expert on religion how is that relevant to the debate on whether God exists or not if you don't need to be either of those to debate it or are you saying you have to be a philosopher an expert on religion or a theologian to pose philosophical arguments or debate Gods existence? Star Trek is filled with philosophical arguments are all the writers on Star Trek philosophers? Regardless don't philosophers, religions experts and theologians use logic to come to conclusions? You claim faith is illogical you either believe in God or you don't so how are the philosophers, religious experts and theologians logic any more or less flawed then Dawkins logic when you can't use logic to explain something illogical. If that's the case then how can Dawkins trick someone in to not believing in God. If you can trick someone out of believing in something then you can trick someone in to believing in the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janeway72 View Post
So you are allowed to quote and use in your arguments the writings of someone whose work you have not read, but I am not supposed to debate Richard Dawkins because I have only heard what he had to say on a TV programme and read a few of the articles on his website? That seems somewhat hypocritical, which is exactly what you are accusing me of.
I'm not making assumptions on what Sam Harris's arguments are or his conclusions you were when it came to Dawkins that's why I said read the book. I quoted Sam Harris to show someone can believe in something delusional with out being delusional I'm not claiming anything further. Here is a quote from "The God Delusion" that further explains Dawkins's choice of title:

Quote:
"The word 'delusion' in my title has disquieted some psychiatrists who regard it as a technical term, not to be bandied about. Three of them wrote to me to propose a special technical term for religious delusion: 'reclusion.' Maybe it'll catch on. But for now I am going to stick with 'delusion,' and I need to justify my use of it. The Penguin English Dictionary defines a delusion as ;a false belief or impression'. Surprisingly, the illustrative quotation the dictionary gives is from Phillip E. Johnson: 'Darwinism is the story of humanity's liberation from the delusion that its destiny is controlled by a power higher than itself.' Can that be the same Phillip E. Johnson who leads the creationist charge against Darwinism in America today? Indeed it is, and the quotation is, as we might guess, taken out of context. I hope the fact that I have stated as much will be noted, since the same courtesy has not been extended to me in numerous creationist quotations of my works, deliberately and misleadingly taken out of context. Whatever Johnson's own meaning, his sentence as it stands is one that I would be happy to endorse." - Richard Dawkins
Quote:
Originally Posted by janeway72 View Post
So should people who go to church hire babysitters so they can go to church and never let their kids see them pray or read their Bibles. You are part of your parents' culture whether you like it or not. Why do you think a child who is brought up in a home where the parent's have a faith are any less inquisitive or questioning about the world around them? Many of these children question their faith and then come back to the conclusion (along with the other 4 and a half billion people in the world) that God does exist and some don't.
I'm not telling anyone how to raise their children and you right you are part of your parents culture whether you like it or not. I don't believe children are less inquisitive or quesioning about the around them because I seem to have many diffrent views about the world then my parents. I guess I just personally would rather my child be able to say I am this because I believe this unlike me who has to say I was raised Christian but. On another note I don't see how that number you have in brackets is relevant to anything. Just because x amount of people believe in something that can't be proven or disproven doesn't make that belief anymore valid or invalid.
Reply With Quote
  #258  
Old 01-12-2010, 02:54 AM
janeway72's Avatar
janeway72 janeway72 is offline
Admiral
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Federation Starship Voyager
Posts: 4,977
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain View Post
So someone can use scientific reasoning to come to the conclusion that their belief in Santa Claus is false but they can't do the same for God?
There is scientific proof that Santa does not exist. There is no scientific proof that God does not exist. And if you can show me some I would be very happy to read it.
__________________

"Unless you have something a little bigger in your torpedo tubes, I'm not turning around!"
Reply With Quote
  #259  
Old 01-12-2010, 04:14 AM
Enterprise Captain's Avatar
Enterprise Captain Enterprise Captain is offline
Commander
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Toronto, ON Canada
Posts: 1,070
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by janeway72 View Post
There is scientific proof that Santa does not exist. There is no scientific proof that God does not exist. And if you can show me some I would be very happy to read it.
There is scientific proof that Santa does not exist? Please show it to me and I would be very happy to read it.
Reply With Quote
  #260  
Old 01-12-2010, 06:33 AM
horatio's Avatar
horatio horatio is offline
Fleet Admiral
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 9,282
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain View Post
Your right it doesn't, I apologize. Here is the quote again:
Here is my break down of the quote feel free to question me on it. I feel people need to be more specific when throwing around the word religion because it encompasses multiple things. There are religious intuitions, religious practices/traditions and religious beliefs. I might have missed something so I throw in etc. Religious intuitions are real and obviously not a delusion. People participate in religious practices/traditions i.e. Communion etc. so these are obviously not delusions. Then we get to religious beliefs. Each religion has it's own set of religious beliefs. In Christianity’s case Jesus and God are included in its religious beliefs. Someone may not believe in any particular religions beliefs but they can still believe in a God or a higher power so a belief in God can be separate from religious beliefs. Are religious beliefs or a belief in God or a higher power a delusion? I don't know but that is one debate put forth in "The God Delusion." I'm pretty sure that Robert M. Pirsig is saying is that the religious belief is the delusion not that the religious person is delusional. I'm also pretty sure that is also what Sam Harris the neurophilosopher is saying in the quote I posted earlier and I'm also pretty sure that is what Dawkins agrees with. Children believe in Santa Clause we don't call them delusional but clearly we know that such a belief is a delusion I mean heck we teach it to them so are we delusional for doing so? Maybe. I'm pretty sure Dawkins doesn't believe all religious people are delusional that is what I was arguing. Whether Dawkins, Robert M. Pirsig and Sam Harris argument is right I don't know. Anyway this is one debate brought up in "The God Delusion" there are a lot of other things Dawkins touches on. Like I said before Dawkins is not my God and "The God Delusion" is not my gospel I just think some of the things touched upon in the book are interesting.
These are valid points and I have no problem when someone believes that religious people are delusional. I have a lot of issues when someone claims to know that they are, that's scientific arrogance.
I am sure that Mr.Dawkins is a great scientist and that he even writes some interesting stuff in this book, but just like I have no interest in wasting my time with what creationists write, I will not waste my time with what the other extremists write.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:48 AM.


Forum theme courtesy of Mark Lambert
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2009 by Paramount Pictures. STAR TREK and all related
marks and logos are trademarks of CBS Studios Inc. All Rights Reserved.