The Official Star Trek Movie Forum

The Official Star Trek Movie Forum > Star Trek > Off Topic Discussions > Warp Speed.
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-04-2010, 09:55 PM
Admiral Rand Admiral Rand is offline
Ensign
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 48
Default Warp Speed.

So the other day i was watching TOS The Changeling. In this and several other ep. They have talked about things going faster than warp ten. In this ep. They talk about a bolt of energy going warp 15. But in other series I.e. VOY. Tom Paris goes warp ten in a shuttle. And they all talk about how no one had gone that fast before. And that people couldn't go that fast because it made them sick and things. Put them everywhere at once and things. So my overall question is A. Is this just another time when trek universe doesn't sync up all that well? Or B did they change the warp scale after a time to make up for this?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-04-2010, 10:36 PM
vuedoc's Avatar
vuedoc vuedoc is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: New York City
Posts: 1,931
Default

Both.

There was a change in the warp scale between TOS (including the movies) and TNG, in order to allow for greater speeds to be reached. In the newer scale, maximum warp by any vessel is defined as 9.99... with warp 10 being defined as "infinite speed." In any case, warp 10+ in the old scale was probably the equivalent of 7 or 8 on the newer one. There is a formula used to calculate this but I don't have it at the moment. There are a few threads on this elsewhere.

I can deal with that, but what kind of annoyed me in TOS was where in some episodes such as "By Any Other Name" and "The Changeling" as you mentioned, is that sometimes warp speeds greater than 10 were attained with engine modifications only, but at other times, anything greeater than warp 9 caused iminent hull damage. I would have appreciated a little consistency there.
__________________
"Stop it? I'm counting on it."
"But not because you threaten me. I'll pay you because... it's my pleasure."
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-04-2010, 11:10 PM
martok2112's Avatar
martok2112 martok2112 is offline
Fleet Admiral
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: River Ridge, LA
Posts: 6,480
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vuedoc View Post
Both.

There was a change in the warp scale between TOS (including the movies) and TNG, in order to allow for greater speeds to be reached. In the newer scale, maximum warp by any vessel is defined as 9.99... with warp 10 being defined as "infinite speed." In any case, warp 10+ in the old scale was probably the equivalent of 7 or 8 on the newer one. There is a formula used to calculate this but I don't have it at the moment. There are a few threads on this elsewhere.

I can deal with that, but what kind of annoyed me in TOS was where in some episodes such as "By Any Other Name" and "The Changeling" as you mentioned, is that sometimes warp speeds greater than 10 were attained with engine modifications only, but at other times, anything greeater than warp 9 caused iminent hull damage. I would have appreciated a little consistency there.
And as you pointed out, the scales were changed between TOS and TNG. (Part of the "technology unchained" philosophy of TNG.)

According to the TNG Technical Manual, if a (next gen) ship were able to achieve a speed of warp 10, it would simultaneously occupy all points in the universe.

Then, they changed it up again in All Good Things when the Super Enterprise and Dr. (Capt.) Crusher's medical ship could apparently achieve warp 14-15.

Gaaaaahhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-05-2010, 03:20 AM
Commodore's Avatar
Commodore Commodore is offline
Rear Admiral
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Starbase 24
Posts: 2,511
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vuedoc View Post
Both.

There was a change in the warp scale between TOS (including the movies) and TNG, in order to allow for greater speeds to be reached. In the newer scale, maximum warp by any vessel is defined as 9.99... with warp 10 being defined as "infinite speed." In any case, warp 10+ in the old scale was probably the equivalent of 7 or 8 on the newer one. There is a formula used to calculate this but I don't have it at the moment. There are a few threads on this elsewhere.

I can deal with that, but what kind of annoyed me in TOS was where in some episodes such as "By Any Other Name" and "The Changeling" as you mentioned, is that sometimes warp speeds greater than 10 were attained with engine modifications only, but at other times, anything greeater than warp 9 caused iminent hull damage. I would have appreciated a little consistency there.
Actually, there was a sort of consistency there. The Enterprise first traveled beyond Warp 9 in "The Changeling" and reached Warp 11 thanks to modifications made by the Nomad probe. When the ship was modified again by the Kelvans in "By Any Other Name" it was once again at Warp 11. It's feasible that both times these modifications were subsequently removed to be studied by Starfleet and the ship was returned to its original specifications (damn alien tampering!). But anything faster than Warp 9 was generally considered unsafe in TOS, IIRC...
__________________
Free your mind, and the rest will follow.
--En Vogue
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-05-2010, 04:37 AM
kevin's Avatar
kevin kevin is offline
Federation Councillor
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: East Kilbride, Glasgow, UK
Posts: 21,078
Default

Was the recalibration ever 'officially' mentioned in any script?

Suddenly occurred to me we all know about it but I can't recall any characters in any film or episode actually talking about the scales being changed from TOS times.

Am I wrong?
__________________
'If the Apocalypse starts, beep me!' - Buffy Summers
'The sky's the limit.....' Jean-Luc Picard, 'All Good Things'


courtesy of Saquist
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-05-2010, 08:52 AM
vuedoc's Avatar
vuedoc vuedoc is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: New York City
Posts: 1,931
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by martok2112 View Post


Then, they changed it up again in All Good Things when the Super Enterprise and Dr. (Capt.) Crusher's medical ship could apparently achieve warp 14-15.

Gaaaaahhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Then again, that timeline never really happened

The other point I made is that the "modifications" in those TOS episodes seemed to apply only to the engines, but it was implied in other episodes that greater speeds were "unsafe" due to loss of hull integrity, i.e to enable the ship to continuously travel at >warp 10 would have required structural redesign as well as engine modifications.
__________________
"Stop it? I'm counting on it."
"But not because you threaten me. I'll pay you because... it's my pleasure."
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-05-2010, 09:09 AM
kevin's Avatar
kevin kevin is offline
Federation Councillor
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: East Kilbride, Glasgow, UK
Posts: 21,078
Default

I remember reading though that with 'All Good Things' that the writers intentionally had some fun with previous Star Trek no-no's in their alternate because they knew it would be erased by the end of the episode.
__________________
'If the Apocalypse starts, beep me!' - Buffy Summers
'The sky's the limit.....' Jean-Luc Picard, 'All Good Things'


courtesy of Saquist
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-05-2010, 01:25 PM
Commodore's Avatar
Commodore Commodore is offline
Rear Admiral
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Starbase 24
Posts: 2,511
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin View Post
Was the recalibration ever 'officially' mentioned in any script?

Suddenly occurred to me we all know about it but I can't recall any characters in any film or episode actually talking about the scales being changed from TOS times.

Am I wrong?
Nope. It's one of those unspoken things in Trek (such as the Enterprise-E being a Sovereign-class starship). In fact, the only official thing we know about warp scales period is that each subsequent warp factor is presumably faster than the previous one and that "maximum warp" varies from ship to ship. Otherwise, both the TOS and TNG warp scales are totally non-canon and have been pretty much contradicted in every episode involving speeds and travel times to boot.

The only reason why it is presumed there was a recalibration in the warp scale was because of behind-the-scenes information and because the Enterprise-D would be otherwise slower than the original Enterprise.
__________________
Free your mind, and the rest will follow.
--En Vogue
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-05-2010, 02:52 PM
martok2112's Avatar
martok2112 martok2112 is offline
Fleet Admiral
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: River Ridge, LA
Posts: 6,480
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commodore View Post
It's one of those unspoken things in Trek (such as the Enterprise-E being a Sovereign-class starship).
Isn't it amazing how rarely ship classes are actually referred to in Star Trek?

Constitution, Sovereign, Oberth, Miranda, Ambassador.... barely mentioned, or not mentioned at all.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-06-2010, 05:24 AM
Commodore's Avatar
Commodore Commodore is offline
Rear Admiral
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Starbase 24
Posts: 2,511
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by martok2112 View Post
Isn't it amazing how rarely ship classes are actually referred to in Star Trek?
A lot of that has to do with how rarely we see other Starfleet vessels in Trek. The irony is that the series in which we saw the most of Starfleet was the one in which featured an alien space station as it's primary focus.
Quote:
Constitution, Sovereign, Oberth, Miranda, Ambassador.... barely mentioned, or not mentioned at all.
Yeah, it took an early episode of TNG to make the term "Constitution-class" official. It was never spoken once in any TOS episode or movie (although it did finally appear in print in Star Trek VI).
__________________
Free your mind, and the rest will follow.
--En Vogue
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 08:54 PM.


Forum theme courtesy of Mark Lambert
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2009 by Paramount Pictures. STAR TREK and all related
marks and logos are trademarks of CBS Studios Inc. All Rights Reserved.