[kevin]

Originally Posted by horatio

She was simply annoying and neither convincing as Orion or Starfleet cadet. NuStarfleet is really an elite institution, Gaila, 'Cupcake', ...

OK, see this is the thing - Starfleet may be an elite institution but that doesn't mean all cadets are flawless people.

Even Hoshi got thrown out of the Academy in ENT, Mr Adventure in TSFS was a jerk (as was 'Tiny'), Nick Locarno, Tom Paris, B'elanna Torres and Jean-Luc Picard all had personal problems while there. Centered on their attitudes and personal conduct while there.

Some were shown to learn from the experiences, some didn't. So, yes it's supposed to be the best - but that does not mean they can't be less than likeable.

[horatio]

Originally Posted by kevin

OK, see this is the thing - Starfleet may be an elite institution but that doesn't mean all cadets are flawless people.

Even Hoshi got thrown out of the Academy in ENT, Mr Adventure in TSFS was a jerk (as was 'Tiny'), Nick Locarno, Tom Paris, B'elanna Torres and Jean-Luc Picard all had personal problems while there. Centered on their attitudes and personal conduct while there.

Some were shown to learn from the experiences, some didn't. So, yes it's supposed to be the best - but that does not mean they can't be less than likeable.

Good points.

Originally Posted by Odradek

Yes, they were Orions. Swallow it.
Try to see it this way: I'm a German, and I am not a war criminal.Times change.

True, Trek has never implied that all Orions work in the Syndicate or that the Syndicate is only run by Orions. Many job opportunities in the galaxy.

Guess I am just too used to TV Trek, but it would be nice if at least a few lines about the Syndicate, how horrible it was there, etc. would be dropped by another potential Orion Starfleet character in the next movie.

[Samuel]

Originally Posted by kevin

OK, see this is the thing - Starfleet may be an elite institution but that doesn't mean all cadets are flawless people.

Annapolis is quite elite also. Probably about as elite as you can get based on admission. Being a genius is not enough. You also have to show you will be among the best high-ranking career Naval officers who can lead in war. I certainly wouldnt characterize its cadets as being flawless. Hazing and cheating scandals. Sexual harassment of female cadets. The trick is to make them much less flawed by the time they graduate.

I cant imagine anyone who knew Gaila thought of her as having captain potential. But of course perhaps she used her charms on the Orion representative (assuming they have legit representation) to get appointed. Once there play the stereotypical person 'who likes to get around' to get ahead without raising suspicion among her superiors.

There. This scenario could fit within the current context of a minor character that a movie would not spend time and money on... if anyone chooses to use it.

[Livingston]

Originally Posted by I-Am-Zim

Another thing that bugged me was the apparent lack of the "utopian" society that GR envisioned and that was prevalent throughout TOS as well as TNG and the rest. I know a lot of people think it's unrealistic to think that the Earth will be a perfect civilization by the 23rd century. And they're probably right. But this is fiction. And GR envisioned Earth as an almost perfect, clean, war/crime/disease/poverty free society. And I have absolutely no problem with that. That is what STXI apparently lacked. I haven't seen all the deleted scenes yet because I haven't been able to bring myself to spend the $20 bucks on the 2-disc DVD. But I did get a glimpse of a couple of them on youtube. One that struck me as particularly non-TOS like was the scene where little Jimmy Kirk's a$$ of a stepfather kicks his big brother Sam to the curb. He basically tells Sam to get out of his house. And even worse, his house is a crappy looking corrugated shack that looks like a tall barn in the middle of the desert. That's just wrong. In my opinion. Who kicks a little kid out onto the street in the enlightened utopia of the 23rd century? Apparently that kind of thing goes on in the Abramsverse. That's why I prefer "my" Star Trek. And that's another reason why AbramsTrek didn't feel like real Star Trek to me. I don't expect a lot of you to understand the way I feel about this particular aspect. And I also expect a lot of $hit over this. But that's the way I feel about it. I thoroughly enjoy GR's vision of Earth as a shining utopia where there is no hunger, homelessness, hopelessness, war, disease, or any of the maladies that plague modern 21st century Earth. I'm just optimistic like that I guess.

The thing with this movie was, especially in that instance was we were seeing things we don't usually see in Star Trek. Mostly we see everything from the bridge of a starship or at least from the federation POV, whether it be through captains, officers whoever. I still think the movie had that 'idealized' future, yeah, 'utopia', which the original series had, may be a bit lacking in this movie, but this movie was far from being a seedy future, the future still looked very bright. The civilization seemed utopian in some ways, but there are still jerks. I don't think we'll ever get rid of those Zim. Guess I'm pessimist.

Basic thing, Earth seemed to have gotten past much of the problems that plague it today and that sense of unity TOS had very much seemed to be there. It was also great to see aliens on Earth. It's nice to know in 300 years you can go into a bar somewhere in the middle of Iowa, have a beer with an alien and say, 'hey, what's with the long face?'

But seriously, I'd like to see more of that in Trek. Earth-life. You got to see a little in DS9 with Sisko's father. Maybe that'd make a good fake reality tv show, Earth-life 2380. I'd watch it.

"This is planet Earth! You're looking at planet Earth!"

[MrQ1701]

Originally Posted by Odradek

Yes, they were Orions. Swallow it.
Try to see it this way: I'm a German, and I am not a war criminal.Times change.

??? Times change? In ENT, TOS, and all the way thru DS9 and VOY, the Orions were NOT the type of people to join Starfleet. While I admit it is possible for exceptions to just about anything, I find it unlikely. If a story is told that is post Nemesis and more Orions wish to join Starfleet, THAT would be times changing, not going back to a period of time where we KNOW how the Orions acted and then completely changing their behavior and demeanor. Please tell me what line in the movie makes you certain they were Orions. I don't remember such a line.

[I-Am-Zim]

I agree. We assume that Gaila was an Orion because she was green. But we don't KNOW she was. She could have been some new alien who just happens to be green. That would be more plausible in my opinion than trying to fit TOS-era Orions into that type of situation since we do know how the Orions acted in the TOS era.

[MrQ1701]

Originally Posted by kevin

Which is obviously why the film will never really work for you. That's fair enough because it means there was to a degree, a mismatch between expectations and what was being made.

I guess that can happen, and it's unfortunate, but it does explain a couple of things.

I knew the tone and story telling style would be more inline with TOS. I expected that. What I did not expect was for them to ONLY use TOS in order to draw from when rebooting the Trek universe. During the last we have 4 other series and 10 movies that have done a pretty good job filling in the details. While there were inconsistencies, they did a good job of explaining how things worked and what the difference between a replicator and a phaser were. Those things did NOT need to be completely thrown out and replaced. I expected them to be updated and different, but NOT completely different. While I understand this was all about TOS, the series only apparently, it was a slap in the face and disrespectful to ignore everything that came after.

[Captain Tom Coughlin]

There must be billions of Orions, and they probably have all different outlooks on life. Just as 6 billion humans today do. Just like Enterprise showed us a Klingon doctor, no species is homogeneous in it's personality. That has always been a flaw in Star Trek if you ask me, this idea that all Klingons act a certain way, all Romulans act another.

[MrQ1701]

Originally Posted by Captain Tom Coughlin

There must be billions of Orions, and they probably have all different outlooks on life. Just as 6 billion humans today do. Just like Enterprise showed us a Klingon doctor, no species is homogeneous in it's personality. That has always been a flaw in Star Trek if you ask me, this idea that all Klingons act a certain way, all Romulans act another.

I agree with you completely. So what? That doesn't PROVE they were Orions.

Trek did a good job getting away from the idea an entire species were the same though. You had characters that were different than the prevailing characteristics of their species. You had Rom, for instance. There were also lines every now and then that poked fun of the way an entire species was treated as being the same. In ENT I remember a line that made fun of the belief all Klingon's were warriors. I can't remember if it was the episode where Archer was on trial or if it was the "no ridge explanation" episode. "You didn't think all Klingons were warriors, did you?" Or something like that.

[Captain Tom Coughlin]

That was the Klingon doctor I referred to