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  #21  
Old 11-25-2009, 10:26 AM
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Depends on how much input he had. If he didn't create the actual concept for that particular show, develop the ideas and themes etc then he can't be credited as the 'Creator' of that particular series, even if he helped in some areas.
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  #23  
Old 11-25-2009, 06:58 PM
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My *impression* was that Gene was getting close to his deathbed, and that Berman maybe had all of one conversation with him about a then-unnamed space station concept the studio wanted [Berman] to develop into an ST spin-off series. And that "go get 'em" was about the extent of Roddenberry's input.

But don't quote me on any of this, because I have no sources to cite.
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  #24  
Old 11-26-2009, 10:18 PM
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I'm glad Gene's input was limited/next to none on DS9. If Gene had overseen the show it would of been what the first two seasons were. Finding weird phenomenon week to week and have no character growth. DS9 got interesting from season 3 onward. In fact, I started my collection of DS9 box sets from 3-7 first then bought 1 and 2 later.

Gene wouldn't of had a war on the show. He wouldn't of allowed character growth. It wouldn't of been a different show. DS9 was the only Star Trek to truly be unique in the sense that it was different from the "Wagon Train to the stars" motif. And I like diversity.
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  #25  
Old 11-27-2009, 09:46 AM
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Yeah, Dukat would have been too much for Gene I think. I think Khan was as far as you could go, and with Star Trek II, he had less control of the film which is why he became "Executive Consultant" rather than "Producer" like he was with TMP.
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  #26  
Old 11-27-2009, 09:58 AM
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He might have not liked the premise of DS9, but Dukat was just the regular villain in the show, not unlike the Kor or Kang or Koloth (had they appeared more often). So my wild guess is that he would have minded the background story of the Occupation more than a Carddie bad guy around the corner.
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  #27  
Old 11-27-2009, 10:55 AM
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Do any of you think that Dukat has a good heart at all? Or is he someone who is just pure evil on the inside with a soft shell on the outside? I get sense of a little of both actually. There are times when I notice him to be very sarcastic and untrustworthy, and I'm glad that most of the people he talks to don't fall for his sarcastic undertone, but at the same time I'm in the dark. This is what makes Gul Dukat such a great villian. There is much mystery to him as opposed to someone like the Founder, Weyoun or Nero, who just want one thing and all act on what they want. With Dukat, I'm not sure wither to put him as an enemy or a neutral ground who truely wanted freedom for Cardassia but at the expence of everyone not getting credit but him.

I just saw "Heart of Glory" and I actually started to have sympathy for Dukat. Having the whole episode devoted to him was something that I felt was needed by far. He is still a mystery, but at least we get to see how his trueself is, or at least what we percieve it to be. And when he mentioned about how Cardassia was a dying people and that he was the only true Cardassian left to fight for it, I felt that there is something more to him. But in the end, there is no excuse for what he did during the Occupation. That was inexcusable and I'm glad that Kira will never forgive him for that, no matter how nice he is on the inside. The closest thing to Kira forgiving Dukat, was when she said, "Yes, too bad a lot of people had to die for his education [of realizing that what he did was wrong]." She is strong and won't fall for him. But, I think there is more to Dukat than meets the eye and we never really know about the true Dukat.

However, in the end he just turns to pure evil and there's nothing left to know about him, other than that he doesn't have a care in the world after his daughter was murdered.
I know it's probably wrong but I've always had a crush on Dukat, I can't help it. I'm not condoning any of the atrocities that were committed under his regime in any way but I find him extremely charismatic and he's by far my favourite ST villain because he's such a multi-layered, fascinating and mysterious character. I agree with everything you just said... And do you remember how loving he was with his daughter? He was absolutely devastated when she died.
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  #28  
Old 11-27-2009, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Vaako View Post
I know it's probably wrong but I've always had a crush on Dukat, I can't help it. I'm not condoning any of the atrocities that were committed under his regime in any way but I find him extremely charismatic and he's by far my favourite ST villain because he's such a multi-layered, fascinating and mysterious character. I agree with everything you just said... And do you remember how loving he was with his daughter? He was absolutely devastated when she died.
Yeah, I can't believe Damar did that. He broke down and that event was one of the few times where we see the true Dukat come out. Feelings and all. I guess after her death he became mad and just took up religion as many of us do once something devistating happens. The only problem with Dukat, was that he took up religion along with hatred.
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  #29  
Old 11-28-2009, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by TNG_Trekman View Post
I'm glad Gene's input was limited/next to none on DS9. If Gene had overseen the show it would of been what the first two seasons were. Finding weird phenomenon week to week and have no character growth. DS9 got interesting from season 3 onward. In fact, I started my collection of DS9 box sets from 3-7 first then bought 1 and 2 later.
Not really. Season 2 had very few 'weird phenomena' episodes, and a lot of character growth (Odo, Kira, Quark, Garak, Dukat...), political intrigue and stories that explored the complexities of alien societies (Bajorans, Cardassians) in a more complex way, and it introduced some storylines that would play a big role in the next seasons (the Maquis, and of course, Dominion).

To be fair to season 1, it wasn't all about the weird phenomena episodes , but it was a shorter season and there were too many of them, especially in the middle of the season, and they stuck out even more since most of them were bad. They also used too many TNG characters cameos early on. Still, there was character development (Emissary, Past Prologue, A Man Alone, Battle Lines, Progress, and of course Duet and In the Hands of the Prophets), particularly for Kira and Odo, while Sisko got most of it in the pilot, laying the groundwork for what was to come in the next seasons.

In season 2, we did get a few standalones like Melora, Second Sight, Rivals, Paradise, Shadowplay, but we also got: more exploration of Bajoran (the Circle trilogy at the start of the season, The Collaborator) and Cardassian politics/society (Cardassians, Profit and Loss, Tribunal), Occupation flashbacks in the noir-like Necessary Evil, story of the consequences of the Occupation inthe above mentioned Cardassians (also with some good character moments for O'Brien), The Maquis two-parter (not just introducing the Maquis storyline that would return in later seasons in Defiant, For the Cause, For the Uniform, Blaze of Glory, but also featuring the first significant character development for Dukat), Garak-centric The Wire, further exploration of Odo's background and identity (The Alternate), re-introduction of Klingons and the introduction of Dax's interest in Klingon culture (Blood Oath), significant developments in dynamics such as Odo/Kira, Garak/Bashir, Sisko/Dukat, and the mention and eventually introduction of the Dominion (The Jem 'Hadar).

I don't see why you would consider season 2 to be inferior to season 3 - they are quite similar, and S3 had as many 'weird phenomena' standalones as S2 (Meridian, Fascination, Visionary, Distant Voices). I actually prefer season 2, and I'd argue that S3's lame episodes such as Meridian or Fascination were far worse than season 2's lame episodes. And as for the Dominion, its role in season 3 is not that big as it might have been anticipated (kind of like Klingons in season 4) - it's only fully used in the season opener, the wonderful Improbable Cause/The Die Is Cast, Heart of Stone, and the finale. The rest of the season is pretty much business as usual: Ferengi episodes (although The House of Quark is one of my favorite Quark episodes), MU episode (weaker than the S2 one), weird phenomena/comedy episodes, Dax-centric episodes (granted, I prefer S3 Dax episodes to S2 Dax episodes), and more Bajor/Cardassia political intigue, which I always enjoyed (and S3 gave Second Skin, one of my all-time favorites), but it doesn't make S3 different than season 2.
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Last edited by DevilEyes : 11-28-2009 at 07:21 AM.
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  #30  
Old 11-28-2009, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Vaako View Post
I know it's probably wrong but I've always had a crush on Dukat, I can't help it. I'm not condoning any of the atrocities that were committed under his regime in any way but I find him extremely charismatic and he's by far my favourite ST villain because he's such a multi-layered, fascinating and mysterious character. I agree with everything you just said... And do you remember how loving he was with his daughter? He was absolutely devastated when she died.
That's exactly what made him such a compelling character, someone you didn't know if you loved to hate or hated to love. The best villains are those who are multi-faceted, appealing and can even be sympathetic, rather than just one-dimensional moustache-twirling bad guys who are just doing bad things because they are eeeevil.

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Originally Posted by Quark View Post
Yeah, Dukat would have been too much for Gene I think. I think Khan was as far as you could go, and with Star Trek II, he had less control of the film which is why he became "Executive Consultant" rather than "Producer" like he was with TMP.
Well, Dukat in any case proved to be too much for Ira Steven Behr.
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