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  #111  
Old 02-13-2009, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Botany Bay View Post
By that logic I am also my cut hair and toe nails. I can assure you, I do not identify myself as the sum of my cut toe nails.
I simply get rid of them.

I am not my body. But I appreciate to have one... a lot.
"By that logic" would imply that that all things are applicable. But all examples aren't applicable. The realation to hair and body are not relatable to the nature of mind and body.

We are what we are because chemicals store our memories and in neural patterns. With out those patterns we are not who we are like an amnesia. Without the energy that passes through those synapses we wouldn't be alive and that memory couldn't be accessed. Thus the sum of what we are can not exist mutally exclusive and survive.
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  #112  
Old 02-14-2009, 12:51 AM
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"Luminous beings are we, not just this crude flesh..."


I think it's possible to both break down a person's memories, essence, soul, whatever into quantitative elements and yet still consider them abstract forms because of their incredible potential to produce total screwups (myself included).

Um...what were we talking about again?
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  #113  
Old 02-15-2009, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
"By that logic" would imply that that all things are applicable. But all examples aren't applicable. The realation to hair and body are not relatable to the nature of mind and body.

We are what we are because chemicals store our memories and in neural patterns. With out those patterns we are not who we are like an amnesia. Without the energy that passes through those synapses we wouldn't be alive and that memory couldn't be accessed. Thus the sum of what we are can not exist mutally exclusive and survive.
Very nice, yes! "When we shuffle off this mortal coil", it's been talked about and discussed probably forever. This idea that we are the sum of our physiological elements is beyond our science, there is still a lot of faith filling in the blanks there and maybe one day we'll be able to quantify every little ambition, emotion, thing we've ever done, but until that time, it's a mystery, we are more than the sum of our parts. The day we aren't, it'll be depressing but if that is where the scientific truth leads us, then that is where we must go. Depressing.
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  #114  
Old 02-15-2009, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
We are what we are because chemicals store our memories and in neural patterns. With out those patterns we are not who we are like an amnesia. Without the energy that passes through those synapses we wouldn't be alive and that memory couldn't be accessed. Thus the sum of what we are can not exist mutally exclusive and survive.
Yup. Therefore we are not our bodies. But our bodies create consiousness (or at least certain parts of it do).

Electricity is not the sum of all the dynamo parts. But the dynamo creates electricity.
Without the dynamo no electricity. Without the body no concsiousness.

For the "physics" of beaming this means: If I am able to reproduce the body absolutely perfectly, then the counciesness of that person is created too, as a result of that "new" body. And this conciesness will be exactly the same mind, memories, thoughts and emotions.

Last edited by Botany Bay : 02-15-2009 at 12:58 PM.
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  #115  
Old 02-16-2009, 07:54 PM
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You technically kill a person to copy them which gets you into all kinds of metaphysics cause if you can recreate or copy a human body at the subatomic level then what ever a consciousness is, 'exactly the same mind, memories, thoughts and emotions' as Botany put it will be there as well, if these things are indeed the sum of our parts. If not then an empty shell will materialize.
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  #116  
Old 02-16-2009, 09:07 PM
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I don't think the word 'seriously' should be used in any way, shape, or form in conjugation with this thread... (*Grin*)

Okay, all theoretical and hypothetical physics aside, we are in the realm of philosophy, and back to some of the oldest questions in the book. Given that, on average, the human body has 'killed' and 'replaced' every single cell that forms it over a seven-year span, can we really say we are the 'same' person we were a decade ago? After all, we don't share so much as a single cell in common with that person...

(Don't know about you blokes, but *I* feel like 'me'... but, hey, that's a purely subjective call, not an objective one... *Grin*)
not necessarily there are some cells in the body that never get replaced ever. neurons are my example after you are born and all the neurons are finally in place all they do for the rest of your life is make new connections and share data. they DO NOT divide or reproduce, if a neuron dies that's one less neuron you can use. that's why brain damage is so serious because you loose pieces of what connects your soul and/or conciousness to your body. stem cell research has been focused on finding ways to help repair this kind of damage but that raises other ethical concerns. unless you can figure out how to use adult stem cells instead of embryonic.
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  #117  
Old 11-21-2009, 01:23 PM
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Was watching an episode of Universe the other night, the show on History Channel about the cosmos and such, and they were talking about blackholes in the new star trek movie, how scientifically inaccurate they were and all that.

Anyone see it? Basic thing, they were saying blackholes don't behave as time traveling tunnels and that the red matter thing had no basis in reality. Well, yeah, red matter was totally made up like Dilithium Crystals I guess but the blackhole thing was more semantics IMO. Okay, usually it's wormholes in scifi that do what we saw in Trek XI, but maybe in three hundred years they call them blackholes instead. Who knows.

They also touched on the physics of using blackholes as weapons as in the new movie which was pretty interesting.

Anyway it was cool to see some physics stuff being talked about the new movie.
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  #118  
Old 11-21-2009, 01:28 PM
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I never caught it, but a couple weeks back when browsing the internet I found a couple of articles that were based around some scientists who think that in theory Black Holes and time travel are not mutually exclusive.

http://www.startrekmovie.com/forums/...ead.php?t=9733

Not that it strictly matter's - Star Trek's other methods of time travel are of course as bonkers at the end of the day.

Obviously Red Matter is pure invention, but as noted - so is Genesis Proto-matter, the Omega particle etc
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  #119  
Old 11-21-2009, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by kevin View Post
I never caught it, but a couple weeks back when browsing the internet I found a couple of articles that were based around some scientists who think that in theory Black Holes and time travel are not mutually exclusive.

http://www.startrekmovie.com/forums/...ead.php?t=9733

Not that it strictly matter's - Star Trek's other methods of time travel are of course as bonkers at the end of the day.

Obviously Red Matter is pure invention, but as noted - so is Genesis Proto-matter, the Omega particle etc
Good points!

I remember that thread! I was looking for it to post in but am too lazy to use the search option.

Yeah, scifi has had some bonkers ways of time travel:

Trek had a slingshot around the sun.

Stargate was a wormhole going through a solar flare would do it.

And Back to the Future, well, "That's the Flux Capacitor, that's what makes time travel possible!"

Speaking of which that Universe episode talked about BTTF time travel quite a bit as well. Grandfather paradoxes and possible ways of getting around it with quantum mechanics and alternate realities which went right back into the new Trek movie.
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  #120  
Old 11-21-2009, 01:55 PM
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Virtually all we know about black holes is theoretical, but we don't really know what the thing itself really is, what happens beyond the event horizon. And perhaps we shouldn't really ask how an object where the laws of physics don't apply (in other terms chaos) works.
Perhaps it works like a wormhole and spits out the matter somewhere else, who knows.

Although all the time travel stuff in Trek is made up, we know since Einstein that time and gravity are related, so it seems to be possible that something like slingshot around the sun could work if we learn new things about the universe one day.
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