[Vincent Cain]

Originally Posted by martok2112

Indeed.

Somehow, I came away with the notion that Clockwork Orange referred to Alex who would go docile and soft whenever someone committed violence upon him after his psycho-conditioning: soft like an orange, on cue like clockwork.

Bingo.
I think that's pretty much spot on, actually.
I first saw that film at the tender age of 11.
Not really a big deal since I had seen Hellraiser about a year or so prior.

[Bright Eyes]

*Sigh*.

I shall retire with dignity to the pavilion.

[martok2112]

LOL! No, I wasn't trying to counter your report there, Bright Eyes. I was just offering what I initially thought it meant. Your report certainly cleared things up.

A title like A Clockwork Orange to those who aren't in the know actually lends itself to interesting interpretation.

BTW, thanks Vincent.

Heh....after conquering The Exorcist, nothing in films really shocks me anymore.

[Samuel]

Originally Posted by martok2112

Heh....after conquering The Exorcist, nothing in films really shocks me anymore.

I've heard "Audition" was really scary as was "Hostel". Havent seen either of them.

[cjopbj]

The truly saddest thing about "Clockwork Orange" is the fact that scenes that once shocked even adult viewers are now commonplace in movies and TV seen by children. Rape and torture are entertainment for everyone now. Clearly, the message of "Clockwork Orange" is wrong. We do not become repulsed by an excessive amount of cruel imagery. We grow addicted to it.

[Samuel]

A 'Bloom County' strip comes to mind. The characters were watching something on TV but werent sure if it was hollywood violence or war. Because they didnt know they werent sure if they should be enjoying it or not.

I guess for example in the context of '24' torture plays a big part but also deals the consequences of it. One of Jacks points is that people knew it went on, most believed it was wrong, but many didnt want to hear about it either. "See no evil" and all of that. However in our reality eventually people in the US did come around and they wanted it stopped. So even with the media people can still have morals. Its also why we have special laws specifically dealing with sex crimes. When new laws like that come up for statewide vote they always win.

Its funny. In CA we have the 'three strikes' law. Third felony and you are in prison for life. Judges have no leeway and its up to prosecutors to decide if for example stealing a piece of pizza counts. I kid you not. For all the violence in the media we can be a very strict 'law and order' society. Of course one of the consequences is a fast growing prison population and even China (#2 in the world) has a much smaller prison population than we do... even with four times the number of people.

So while we see it every day in the media we also convict a lot more people for such crimes than we did 50 years go. Much stronger punishments as well. When push comes to shove I dont think we are desensitised at all but actually more likely to lock such people up and throw away the key.

[horatio]

Originally Posted by cjopbj

The truly saddest thing about "Clockwork Orange" is the fact that scenes that once shocked even adult viewers are now commonplace in movies and TV seen by children. Rape and torture are entertainment for everyone now. Clearly, the message of "Clockwork Orange" is wrong. We do not become repulsed by an excessive amount of cruel imagery. We grow addicted to it.

I understand your concern but nothing in Clockwork Orange implies that Alex and his gang are nice folks. And the aestheticization of their violence is done to recreate their perspective for the viewer.
Now if you talk about torture porn crap like "Saw", I am all with you.

[cjopbj]

Originally Posted by Samuel

A 'Bloom County' strip comes to mind. The characters were watching something on TV but werent sure if it was hollywood violence or war. Because they didnt know they werent sure if they should be enjoying it or not.

I guess for example in the context of '24' torture plays a big part but also deals the consequences of it. One of Jacks points is that people knew it went on, most believed it was wrong, but many didnt want to hear about it either. "See no evil" and all of that. However in our reality eventually people in the US did come around and they wanted it stopped. So even with the media people can still have morals. Its also why we have special laws specifically dealing with sex crimes. When new laws like that come up for statewide vote they always win.

Its funny. In CA we have the 'three strikes' law. Third felony and you are in prison for life. Judges have no leeway and its up to prosecutors to decide if for example stealing a piece of pizza counts. I kid you not. For all the violence in the media we can be a very strict 'law and order' society. Of course one of the consequences is a fast growing prison population and even China (#2 in the world) has a much smaller prison population than we do... even with four times the number of people.

So while we see it every day in the media we also convict a lot more people for such crimes than we did 50 years go. Much stronger punishments as well. When push comes to shove I dont think we are desensitised at all but actually more likely to lock such people up and throw away the key.

Curious. What is the crime rate in countries with public beheadings and other such public forms of punishment compaired with those such as ours with strong laws but largely unseen punishment? What about their sense of entertainment? If you can watch someone being killed, will you then reject killing as art or do you embrace it?

[Samuel]

Originally Posted by cjopbj

Curious. What is the crime rate in countries with public beheadings and other such public forms of punishment compaired with those such as ours with strong laws but largely unseen punishment? What about their sense of entertainment? If you can watch someone being killed, will you then reject killing as art or do you embrace it?

Interesting question. Public executions in this country for many years were always quite popular, like the good ol public hangings in the old west. And they brought along the kids to watch. One of the usual ideas by proponents of such things are to scare people into not breaking the law. It never worked well but they still believe it. Of course there were the big witch trials with all those bonfires as well, cheering on as the people burned.

The ones that do have beheadings and such these days are often no more than police states also. The change from communist Russia to a more democratic one made for a huge gain in crime. Not because of media but because of society. And because they can even with a still strong police force. Its one of the reasons many people there actually supported the return of the communists. To restore their idea of law and order. Is it no wonder that a former KGB officer was made their leader? Even so the russian mob is quite strong.

In raw numbers China executes more people than anyone else but AFAIK they are never public (others like Iran have a higher rate based on population). Occasionally they are announced on the news but thats it. Even so, they still have a pretty significant crime rate. Of course they have a tightly controlled media as well. Interestingly enough, the nation with the highest conviction rate is Japan. It can have some pretty draconian laws in places. Yet it also still has some of the biggest crime syndicates in the world, for now.