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  #41  
Old 06-07-2009, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by jla1987 View Post
I think that T3's whole point was that John couldn't escape his destiny. There was no avoiding Judgment Day. The variables of how Skynet came about were different because of the alterations to the timeline in T2. T4 plays off of this, note the beginning in 2003 (the new year of Judgment Day according to T3).
not just T3, the whole franchise.

John Connor and Skynet were both created in a temporal paradox.

Connor only exsists because he sent his father back in time.
Skynet only exsists because it sent a Terminator back in time to try prevent John's birth.
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  #42  
Old 06-07-2009, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by DammitJim View Post
not just T3, the whole franchise.

John Connor and Skynet were both created in a temporal paradox.

Connor only exsists because he sent his father back in time.
Skynet only exsists because it sent a Terminator back in time to try prevent John's birth.
True, I was just trying to offset Zardoz's criticism of T3.
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  #43  
Old 06-07-2009, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by jla1987 View Post
True, I was just trying to offset Zardoz's criticism of T3.
T3 is awesome.

anyone know if T4 disregards the TV show or T3?
does Timothy Zahn's prequel novel feature Derek Reese?
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  #44  
Old 06-07-2009, 02:17 PM
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T3 is awesome.

anyone know if T4 disregards the TV show or T3?
does Timothy Zahn's prequel novel feature Derek Reese?
The prequel novel and movie both disregard the TV show, but not T3.
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  #45  
Old 06-07-2009, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by jla1987 View Post
The prequel novel and movie both disregard the TV show, but not T3.
so no Derek at all?
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  #46  
Old 06-07-2009, 03:21 PM
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Saw Terminator Salvation last Friday, and posted this over in DWF:

As you could tell from my previous posts you could clearly see that I’ve been looking forward to this film, albeit tempered by the mixed reviews.

So, what did the Cyberbeagle sniff out today?

I’m glad that the Terminator franchise has moved on from the format of the last films, which was getting a bit tired. Certainly T3 suffered from rehashing T2’s plot, and not giving Sarah Connor a decent send-off. However it did give us Judgement Day, which was a brave move and sets up T4.

So, what was good about T4? It certainly does give us a great taste of the future war as glimpsed in the previous films, even if it is not quite as we saw in our tasters. No lasers/plasma rifles. This, like the brilliance of StarGate, is us as we are now, using our technology. Huey helicopters, tank-buster planes, and firearms. Now, yes we did see in T1-T3 that small arms had little effect on the T-800, but quite clearly the T-600 is more vulnerable, and as most who know a little about the effectiveness modern weaponry, darn well should be!!!

Worthington’s Marcus is good, and so is Bale’s Connor, he’s not dreadful like some have claimed. The brilliant move is that Connor is not the head of the resistance as we expect, it is quite right to assume that a surviving military general is going to assume control over a off-the-grid down-and-out we see in T3. However the stand-out performance is Anton Yelchin as Reese, who comes across convincingly and you’re not comparing him to Michael Biehn, at least certainly not unfavourably.

And of course, Arnie’s CGI cameo was visually very well done! McG’s direction was good for me, as there was no mad crash-zooms or shakey cam which I really hate in films. And telly.

Then there’s the not-so-good. T4 clearly follows on from T3, Kate’s still there, and Connor’s still there, albeit in regenerated form (I wouldn’t have minded if Claire Danes or even Nick Stahl had returned). However we’ve no idea what’s happened between the pair of them being trapped in the bunker at the end of T3 and Connor stepping out of the Huey and shooting the T-600 in the head. When and how did they get out?

Marcus’s introduction and shock and horror of Judgement Day could have been used to fill us in the necessary exposition. I say "shock and horror", but Marcus really doesn't linger on this too long, express any shock of killer robots, and nor does Kyle think it's strange that this guy doesn't know about Judgement Day. Scriptwriting oversight?

Looking at Skynet’s capabilities at this point in the war, there’s nothing to indicate why the Resistance hasn’t wiped Skynet off the face of the planet as yet, certainly nothing our current capabilities couldn’t deal with, even if the major cities where decimated. It certainly didn’t have the feel of a global threat. How did Skynet get to dominance? Perhaps it sent out a command signal to the surviving US fleet to return to port and promptly destroy it? (Although the T-1s and prototype HKs seen in T3 would have been no match for a trained military once the element of surprise went). Was it the lack of a central command and control? Was it the chaos of Judgement Day? Was it the nuclear winter and undoubted famine and disease? Did the world’s nations turn on each other – what remained of them? Why would the Russians or Chinese believe a sentient computer caused Judgement Day? All this could’ve been dealt with in a few flashbacks or Marcus’s info dump.

For criticism of the fact that there's a lot of military hardware out there for the resistance, to be fair, if there was a nuclear strike, there's a good chance a lot of military hardware could've survived - the US fleet could very likely be out of port at the time, plus all the US bases across the world. The Sarah Connor Chronicles also featured a nuclear submarine and an aircraft carrier. Don't forget that according to Kyle in the first film (I know, changed timeline) Skynet merely hit the pre-selected targets in Russia with the nukes, and then the Russians (not Skynet) retaliated.

There is a chance that countries like Australia, New Zealand or the African and South American nations could've survived, and with less hi-tech machinery that Skynet couldn't infiltrate. Hueys for instance are no longer front-line choppers - Black Hawks are and we only saw one of those. However sourcing parts and repair knowledge is going to be an issue.

But likewise, as I said before given the capabilities of Skynet in T3, it is hard to see how Skynet gained a "global" military dominance outside of the US defence network - there was no explanation of that.

The film also requires a certain level of knowledge of the past films, which like a lot of prequels/sequels assume whereas the scriptwriters would be far better off assuming no-one has ever seen a Terminator film before. For instance – how does Skynet know what Kyle Reese looks like? And the development of the T-800 didn’t really get much focus, it was more in the background – just what was happening to all the people and that they needed so many?

Well, it has been suggested that the harvested people once at Skynet, were actually being "harvested" there as well... yikes... It never occurred to me that they might be gutting people and grafting the skin over the T-800 endoskeleton. That's rather chilling and horrible... and wouldn't THAT have been fantastic in the film!!! If it had had a higher rating, they could've shown us at least part of what was happening and really made how gruesome the threat was and why it was crucial to save these people.

However like most of the audience I just assumed it was some sort of stem cell harvesting to grow skin over the T-800s (as in the trailer for T2 back in the day!), since the 101s all look alike - and nothing so gruesome. After all, I assumed Marcus's skin regeneration was due to fancy skin generation techniques learned by these experiments.

As it was in the film, the T-800 *just appeared* - there was no build up or big plot points leading up to the reveal of the T-800, or certainly the significance of Arnie’s appearance really didn’t have much oomph, dread or impending doom – certainly no reaction from Connor. And just how did a Black Hawk fly into Skynet Central so easily?

A bit of tweaking like that would have made a chilling insight into the development of the T-800 and really altered how you look at Arnie's character in the original films.

And another nit-pick, why below the Golden Gate was there no water?? And why was the T-600’s heads-up display a bit more hi-tech looking than the T-800s? Though seeing the old T800 red VDU was nice. And enjoyed the reference to T3 with the fuel cells.

Regards the music, Danny Elfman's score really wasn't that impressive, which was strange for him. It was largely forgettable, didn't fit the bill, and the worst shame was the abandonment of the "proper" Terminator theme, with the exception of a few bars of the opening. If your not going to go with Brad Fiedel then Bear McCreary really captured the Terminator feel, and used the right sounds right - he should get the T5 gig if there is one!

However it was quite enjoyable though it certainly felt more like an opening act than a stand-alone film in its own right. But it could’ve done with a bit more depth and intelligence to the script, perhaps the Terminator: the Sarah Connor Chronicles scriptwriters could lend a hand. And indeed a higher rating – 15 like T2 or even 18 – and a bit more visceral action, just to highlight the horrors of the post-JD world.

One thing as well I noticed at the end is that we don't actually see Marcus dead...

3.5/5 – not as bad as people say, but could’ve been much better with a little bit more work.
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  #47  
Old 06-07-2009, 04:45 PM
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so no Derek at all?
No Derek, no Cameron, no anything from the show. The TV show plays as a continuation of T2, ignoring T3...whereas the new movie follows all three previous movies.
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  #48  
Old 06-07-2009, 06:08 PM
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I enjoyed T4, but didn't really feel it worth a repeat big screen viewing. That said though, obviously I will get the Blu-Ray when it hits.
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  #49  
Old 06-07-2009, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by martok2112 View Post
I enjoyed T4, but didn't really feel it worth a repeat big screen viewing. That said though, obviously I will get the Blu-Ray when it hits.
Upon the second viewing it was better IMO. I needed to go back and not be so over-analytical (the same thing happened when I saw T3. First time I didn't really care for it, and the second viewing somehow changed my view).
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  #50  
Old 06-07-2009, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by jla1987 View Post
I think that T3's whole point was that John couldn't escape his destiny. There was no avoiding Judgment Day. The variables of how Skynet came about were different because of the alterations to the timeline in T2. T4 plays off of this, note the beginning in 2003 (the new year of Judgment Day according to T3).
T3 felt like a huge cheat to all of us who remember T1 fondly.
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