[DammitJim]

Originally Posted by Botany Bay

Uhm... what?! I dont know how you understood it. I was talking about issues. Wouldnt you say those issues are urgent?

these are important issues, why should they be told only from what you say is an American perspective? TREK is for the whole world, of which there is more than just one country.

[Botany Bay]

Originally Posted by DammitJim

these are important issues, why should they be told only from what you say is an American perspective? TREK is for the whole world, of which there is more than just one country.

Okay, then dont tell it from an american perspective, if that makes you feel better. I just thought that an american perspective would be easier to take for american writers because they may be much better versed in american political discourse then, lets say, russian discourses or european news or african politics.

[celticarchie]

And you folks slate me for wanting a message in this movie!

Sheesh!

[RedShirtsRuS]

Originally Posted by Samuel

Wasnt there a TNG episode that dealt with an alien who was androgynous? I dont mean a trill.

As for an issue, its part of another thread but different Earth religions. Surely the Vatican and Mecca must still be around. Unless maybe they were nuked. Personally I think its a much bigger issue than GLBT considering the many wars that have been fought over religion. Not to mention the inqusisions. We're not going to have for example the conflict between christianity and islam that has been raging for a couple thousand years evaporate so quickly.

The Vatican changes its policies on nearly everything in their near 2 millenia history of existence.

Look what they did to Galileo in the beginning. it took them CENTURIES to apologize for what they did to him.

There's mosques/churches in Spain that that were remade over and over when Spain was conquered and reconquered by Christians and Muslims.

There's literally blatant designs that you can see in the buildings in Spain to this day that indicate that the religious buildings were made over by the conquering religious nation at the time.

And I'm pretty sure the Borg oriented episodes and First Contact dealt with the issue of religion in a sufficient way. Like any collection of thoughts and ideas religion changes over time and it assimilates the views and the shifting views into its belief system after a while. Although try getting various religious leaders to admit that and a lot of the time they'll tell you that they think nothing in their religion has never changed.

The Vatican actually does follow a Borg like pattern in the past during their rise to power. A LOT of stuff in the Catholic mythos is stuff that the Catholic Church literally assimilated from other cultures and religions. A lot of it is NOT original thought. Thomas Aquinas was quite an original thinker for his time though, I'll give them that.

Q also depicts pretty much how the God of the Old Testament acts. All powerful, but prone to the pettiest of emotions like jealousy and wrath.

Religion has been done to death in Star Trek enough in my opinion. The Borg was the best depiction of it. And the Borg have been done to death now thanks to Voyager. And Deep Space Nine also dealt with religion on several occasions.

And that one TNG episode with the aliens with no gender was GREAT and smartly written, but it's still not enough, it did feel slightly ambiguous and not forthright like it should have been.

[RedShirtsRuS]

Originally Posted by celticarchie

And you folks slate me for wanting a message in this movie!

Sheesh!

I found plenty in the new movie. You didn't. Too bad for you.

I'll make a thread detailing exactly what I thought the messages in the movie were from my perspective.

I think the reason you didn't see any message is because it didn't overpower the plot like it usually does.

Learn to read between the lines, and don't expect EVERYTHING to be spoon fed to you and just try a little and you'll see a little message in a lot of the film. I guarantee it.

[DammitJim]

Originally Posted by RedShirtsRuS

That sounds fine. I'm hoping for a slightly more upfront approach, maybe shake a fist at "don't ask don't tell" in the US military by depicting out of the closet homosexuals fighting alongside heterosexuals in a battle or something. The out of the closet homosexual would need to be introduced as a character before the battle takes place though.

Simple stuff like that. I think could work.

well, by the 23rd Century homosexual issues (at least in TREKVERSE) won't be an issue, so the character would have to be introduced in a similar fashion. make an issue by not making an issue of it, if you follow me

Originally Posted by Samuel

Wasnt there a TNG episode that dealt with an alien who was androgynous? I dont mean a trill.

yes but wasn't it a bit of a cop out to make the character clearly female.
Frakes always thought so. he said Berman wanted to get the "gay issue" out off the way and felt this was how. Frakes said he had suggested getting a male actor to play his love interest and by not doing so the episode lack any real substance.

Originally Posted by Samuel

As for an issue, its part of another thread but different Earth religions. Surely the Vatican and Mecca must still be around. Unless maybe they were nuked. Personally I think its a much bigger issue than GLBT considering the many wars that have been fought over religion. Not to mention the inqusisions. We're not going to have for example the conflict between christianity and islam that has been raging for a couple thousand years evaporate so quickly.

I too would like to see religion dealt with in a fair way in TREK, like it was in B5 and DS9.
but, I'd like to point out that although there has been much suffering in this world supposedly due to differing religious beliefs, that it is not strictly true that religion is the cause. it is evil men falsely claiming religion as their cause and using it as a weapon and corrupting others.
this is something I'd like JJ and Co. to deal with in a sequel. some zealot corrupting the peaceful teachings of a religion and twisting his followers to seek war on another race. Kirk must find away for the people to see the true meaning of their faith and not resort to a pro-atheist view.

[Botany Bay]

Originally Posted by RedShirtsRuS

And that one TNG episode with the aliens with no gender was GREAT and smartly written, but it's still not enough, it did feel slightly ambiguous and not forthright like it should have been.

I dont know. I dont think that it could carry a movie. First because it would have to be a romance story. And I am not sure people buy a ticket for a sci-fi adventure to see romance.

Then there is the problem wether its about gay victim or gay hero. Gay hero is quite pointless, because that would make the gay character a member of Starfleet or the Federation and because Federation represents utopia (or at least it used to) the homosexuality of the hero would be merely circumstantial like his haircut or eyecolor and add nothing substantial to the plot. They certainly should do it, but that would not carry the movie.

If we go for the gay victim then it must be an alien of some sort, mistreated by an alien culture. And that is not forthright enough for your taste.

Originally Posted by DammitJim

this is something I'd like JJ and Co. to deal with in a sequel. some zealot corrupting the peaceful teachings of a religion and twisting his followers to seek war on another race. Kirk must find away for the people to see the true meaning of their faith and not resort to a pro-atheist view.

So Kirk knows the true meaning of their religion. But the priests preaching war dont. Isnt that the core problem of religion, that every priest preaches to know the true meaning while no one has Gods phone number to settle it once and for all?
That is why all stories concerning religion give a secular answer in the end.

[DammitJim]

Originally Posted by Botany Bay

Okay, then dont tell it from an american perspective, if that makes you feel better. I just thought that an american perspective would be easier to take for american writers because they may be much better versed in american political discourse then, lets say, russian discourses or european news or african politics.

orci and kurtzman, may be very well versed in world affairs, or equally know nothing of american politics.

[Indestructible Object]

Originally Posted by Botany Bay

Okay, then dont tell it from an american perspective, if that makes you feel better. I just thought that an american perspective would be easier to take for american writers because they may be much better versed in american political discourse then, lets say, russian discourses or european news or african politics.

...or and this may seem like a novel idea for star trek fans... why not tackle those ideas/issues (BIGOTRY, FEAR, IGNORANCE, SELFRIGHTEOUSNES) from a HUMAN perspective not a national one, as they are all HUMAN problems.

[Botany Bay]

Originally Posted by DammitJim

orci and kurtzman, may be very well versed in world affairs, or equally know nothing of american politics.

Okay, listen, I have no clue what makes you go off on this. Whats wrong with an american perspective? Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman are americans. As far as I know they lived their whole life in the U.S. The sequel will be made in the U.S. Its a Hollywood movie. And as all Hollywood movies it will focus on an american audience. Therefor it will forcingly have an american perspective.
I really dont know whats wrong with that.