The Official Star Trek Movie Forum

The Official Star Trek Movie Forum > Star Trek > Star Trek XI: The Movie > (Maybe Spoiler) This IS Star Trek, and it IS Canon (maybe Spoiler)
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 05-04-2009, 07:21 PM
MissionTrek08's Avatar
MissionTrek08 MissionTrek08 is offline
Fleet Admiral
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,562
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mjolnir2000 View Post
According to whom? The only thing that's canon is what appears in the film, not what the writers say about the film. Writers can change their minds, and often do - nothing is set in stone until it appears on screen, and as long as there's nothing in the movie that actually states this is the same universe, then you can't say one way or the other.
But Orci and Kurtzman did not change their minds about their own script, nor do they contradict their own facts in the comic prequel they conceived.

The explanation shown in Countdown is the same as in the film, but the film explains it much more briefly.

What is stated in the comic is stated in the film, if that helps. Orci wasn't lying in interviews, nor was he making up explanations to soothe the egos of ill-informed fans. He was talking about his own script in as much detail as he could without giving the whole story away months in advance.
__________________

MISSION:TREK's in-depth review of STAR TREK


Proud member of the Friends of Zardoz Association. Avatar courtesy of Eliza's House of Avatars with three convenient locations near you. Free balloons for the kids!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-05-2009, 05:11 AM
I-Am-Zim I-Am-Zim is offline
Vice Admiral
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: North Carolina, USA, Earth
Posts: 3,432
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by omegaman View Post
As I understand it Nero and Spock are thrown back in time of their own timeline where events then create the alternate timeline. This event occurs in the current Universe NOT a parallel one. Therefore single Universe, alternate timeline. NOT Parallel Universe, parallel timeline.
I thought this too at the beginning. But there are too many differences between the "real" original timeline and the movie timeline prior to Nero's appearance for them to be the same. I think that Nero and Spock emerge in and alternate universe (Abramsverse) that is about 99% identical to the "real" universe that they left. There are differences, but they are minor. Kirk being born in space instead of in Iowa. Delta Vega being an "ice planet" instead of a desolate desert wasteland like in "WNMHGB". Delta Vega being extremely close to planet Vulcan instead of being located at the edge of the galaxy as in WNMHGB. Captain Pike possibly being many years older than he appeared to be in the flashback scenes from "The Menagerie". Chekov apparently being much older than he was in the original universe. Those are all pre-Nero examples that are different in the Abramsverse as opposed to the "real" or "prime" as Orci called it, universe. That's why I subscribe to the alternate universe theory as opposed to simple linear time travel along the same timeline. The facts just don't line up prior to Nero's appearance.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-05-2009, 05:19 AM
RedShirtWalking's Avatar
RedShirtWalking RedShirtWalking is offline
Commander
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 1,020
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by I-Am-Zim View Post
I thought this too at the beginning. But there are too many differences between the "real" original timeline and the movie timeline prior to Nero's appearance for them to be the same. I think that Nero and Spock emerge in and alternate universe (Abramsverse) that is about 99% identical to the "real" universe that they left. There are differences, but they are minor. Kirk being born in space instead of in Iowa. Delta Vega being an "ice planet" instead of a desolate desert wasteland like in "WNMHGB". Delta Vega being extremely close to planet Vulcan instead of being located at the edge of the galaxy as in WNMHGB. Captain Pike possibly being many years older than he appeared to be in the flashback scenes from "The Menagerie". Chekov apparently being much older than he was in the original universe. Those are all pre-Nero examples that are different in the Abramsverse as opposed to the "real" or "prime" as Orci called it, universe. That's why I subscribe to the alternate universe theory as opposed to simple linear time travel along the same timeline. The facts just don't line up prior to Nero's appearance.
I totally get where you're coming from, Zim...even if I don't share the same mindset.

I respect your opinion, but I think the "ice planet" note is debatable. I mean, Earth has two polar regions and desert regions all over the planet. Isn't it entirely possible that this is some kind of polar region on a different part of the planet?

The other observations on Delta Vega I'm absolutely on board with. This one, though, seems like there could be a reasonable explanation if they wanted there to be one.

Just a thought...
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-05-2009, 05:38 AM
DannydeK DannydeK is offline
Ensign
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 54
Default

This is in fact a parallell universe (see it as a mirror episode, just another mirror). Since in the comics the 'real' universe still exists after Nero and Spock are gone. In fact, they don't even relise they travelled to another universe.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-05-2009, 07:52 AM
starbase63's Avatar
starbase63 starbase63 is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Connecticut, USA
Posts: 1,727
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by omegaman View Post
As I understand it Nero and Spock are thrown back in time of their own timeline where events then create the alternate timeline. This event occurs in the current Universe NOT a parallel one. Therefore single Universe, alternate timeline. NOT Parallel Universe, parallel timeline.
I see you're one of the few who understands the difference between parallel and alternate universes and timelines, Omega...

I usually find it easier to explain it as parallels being lines going off to the left and right infinitely...then the alternates are running parallel on the above and below...
__________________
Never keep a Vulcan waiting...
Admin, sb63's Star Trek Logs, member of the Trek Webmaster Program
STL is now also on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/StarTrekLogs
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 05-05-2009, 07:56 AM
starbase63's Avatar
starbase63 starbase63 is offline
Captain
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Connecticut, USA
Posts: 1,727
Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by DannydeK View Post
This is in fact a parallell universe (see it as a mirror episode, just another mirror). Since in the comics the 'real' universe still exists after Nero and Spock are gone. In fact, they don't even relise they travelled to another universe.
No, not a parallel universe, an alternate timeline that branches off from the original timeline/universe...

A parallel universe would have it's own beginning...the Abrams timeline shares the same beginning as the Trek universe we know and revere.
__________________
Never keep a Vulcan waiting...
Admin, sb63's Star Trek Logs, member of the Trek Webmaster Program
STL is now also on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/StarTrekLogs
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-05-2009, 08:40 AM
interphase's Avatar
interphase interphase is offline
Midshipman
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 8
Default Agree In Principle, But...

Quote:
Originally Posted by starbase63 View Post
No, not a parallel universe, an alternate timeline that branches off from the original timeline/universe...

A parallel universe would have it's own beginning...the Abrams timeline shares the same beginning as the Trek universe we know and revere.
Been reading some nifty physics stuff for the masses lately (being obsessed with understanding Lost has encouraged this), and in the spirit of the Theory of Everything trying to reconcile Quantum Mechanics and the Theory of Relativity, I see a similar situation in how Trek has treated/is treating time travel that makes the answer not so obvious (to me anyway).

To wit, the "Fulfillment" idea is that the temporal paradox is resolved by the future self going back to do what was already done, vs. the "Alternate Timeliine" idea. The Voyager finale was, I think, the latter and not the former, which would mean the future Janeway's world continued to exist as an alternate timeliine. But TOS's Assignment Earth was more the former fulfillment concept. Even when correction to the timeline is being done, it ends up being the fulfillment concept, ala STNG's All Things Considered or DS9's Tribbles reprise episode.

Consider the Planet of the Apes movies. The argument advanced throughout the movie was the "shifting lanes" idea, which is more like the alternate timeline idea, but the movies taken together are more like the fulfillment concept. Similarly with the Back To the Future stuff.

My suggested reconciliation is to say time as experienced is a wide lane that allows for small probablistic variations that don't change the general direction of the lane (think swerving within but never exiting the lane), but one may do a clover leaf exit on the lane and return to the lane (the fulfillment concept) or take a hard exit to proceed onto another lane (the alternate timeline). In either case, one is traversing time, but the nature of the travel ends up different. So, the other lanes are, in some sense parallel, but have branched off or on at certain points.

I gather that the new movie is the latter, which achieves the desired result of simultaneously abandonding but preserving canon. Since a singularity was used to traverse from Trek Prime (the hybrid RoddenberryandB&Bverse) to Trek Delta (the Abramsverse), it is conceivable other cross-overs can happen. (Now to further cook one's noodle, ask yourself is the Mirror Universe a true parallel universe or an alternate timeline?)

To mis-quote Janeway, temporal mechanics gives me a headache.
__________________
"I shall have to recalculate to determine when the next interphase will occur. They do not take place at regular intervals." - Spock, "The Tholian Web" episode of ST:TOS
"It is not enough to survive. One has to be worthy of surviving." - Commander Adama (rank at the time), the Pegasus arc of BSG
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-05-2009, 09:25 AM
ProtoformX ProtoformX is offline
Ensign
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 20
Default

I honestly don't see what all the fuss is about. Vulcans ears are still pointy. Starfleet women are still in miniskirts. Redshirts still have the lowest survivability rate. McCoy still complains like a (insert something McCoy would insist he isn't, damn it Jim). And Kirk still has an appetite for inter-species relations.

Feels like the Star Trek I grew up. :P
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 05-05-2009, 09:44 AM
OneBuckFilms's Avatar
OneBuckFilms OneBuckFilms is offline
Commander
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 909
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by omegaman View Post
As I understand it Nero and Spock are thrown back in time of their own timeline where events then create the alternate timeline. This event occurs in the current Universe NOT a parallel one. Therefore single Universe, alternate timeline. NOT Parallel Universe, parallel timeline.
Incorrect.

Travelling back in time creates the alternate universe from that poin on, in accordance with Quantum Physics.

This is according to the writers, and is supported by brief dialog in the movie.
__________________
Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-05-2009, 09:44 AM
Integritas's Avatar
Integritas Integritas is offline
Ensign
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 56
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by omegaman View Post
This film is not paralyzed by canon."
That cracks me up. Canon? What an anti-religious connotation.

It's more accurately called a BRAND. Paramount doesn't have a good history with any branded series. They presently have two in their history - Raiders and Jack Ryan. Coppola was approached for a "re-imagaining", or a "reboot" for a prequel of Paramount's "The Godfather" (Don Corleone in an alternate timeline?) but he refused.

"Canon" (branding) gives you consistency. Consistency builds affection, which becomes loyalty which begets loads of cash for the studio. Just ask George Lucas.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:45 AM.


Forum theme courtesy of Mark Lambert
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2009 by Paramount Pictures. STAR TREK and all related
marks and logos are trademarks of CBS Studios Inc. All Rights Reserved.