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  #91  
Old 04-24-2009, 11:41 AM
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So if I understand correctly (which I probably dont since I am no theoretician) there is no branching and all possible realities+actions from start to end are separate from the very beginning of time. They start separate and exactly the same but the further forward in time the more distinct they are from one another. But no reality in fact branches off from another since they have always existed. So, there is no 'turn left or turn right' because things in each reality are already fated to happen a certain way... including anything resulting from time travel or dimensional shifts. If a traveler goes back and kills his past self then that reality stops, including the traveler within it.
Well this is where the merging of discussions on time vs. alternate universes or dimensions gets VERY messy. Kaku has discussed that there's nothing physics which state time could not branch off, or that indeed time travel is impossible. If I understand him correctly -- and he was just on the radio talking about this the other night -- he does think TIME can branch off like a river and develop two streams, etc. At least nothing we know precludes this from happening theoretically, which is all we have to go on at this point.

Now when he talks about dimensional universes as bubbles, that's a separate issue from time. I'd guess he's saying that time could work the same way for both bubbles, they simply yield different experiences in different dimensions. He uses the example that one could travel into a black hole in our bubble, and end up emerging from a white hole in another bubble -- presumably time would stay 'constant' for the traveler across the trip (not sure on that, don't quote me).

It would seem to me that TREK's story may split the difference between these two theories a bit. The alternate bubble being entered by Nero and Spock is quite parallel and similar to the 'prime' bubble, but back in 'history' along that parallel path of time. IF that is the case -- a giant if! -- then Orci would be right in saying these two timelines will never merge or be 'corrected' because they are separate bubbles of dimension. This story would NOT be a simple loop back in time on the 'prime' universe.

Either it's creating a separate time stream which will diverge from the 'prime' slightly or greatly forever, or it's taking place in a separate bubble and thus is a unique existence by definition.

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If the development of "Abramsverse" was left undisturbed, all events (past, present and future) would be probably turn out to be very similar to those in the "ST canon universe". In other words, there may even be a Picard of the Enterprise or a Janeway finding a way home with her crew in the future.

However, both universes would never be 100% identical due to differences (no matter how subtle or drastic) in their timelines. You were right about Nero's interference in the "Abramsverse" timeline, the changes induced were indeed quite drastic. It would be important to note that the "Abramsverse" was just only one of many possible alternate realities (As demonstrated in STNG's Parallels episode).

By the same token, the story of how Kirk and Spock became best buddies in ST XI was unique to the "Abramsverse" only. In the original Star Trek timeline in the "ST canon universe", the USS Kelvin was never destroyed by Nero. In other words, Kirk and Spock's friendship blossomed under very different circumstances (without interference from Nero). So the story of how William Shatner really met Leonard Nimoy may never be told (Sorry guys, but both of you did a great job nevertheless!).
Well, it won't be told the same way in this film. Never say never -- someone could tell a TOS-only origin story... but then again, since this backstory is sketchy at best, such a tale would only be as official as its label. None of us know in full the "one way" it happened the first time.
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  #92  
Old 04-25-2009, 08:43 PM
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Whenever a Trek series does time travel, and it affects their current timeline, they go back and fix it. Or if they are already back in time, they try not to disrupt the past.

If Spock and the Narada's time travel does affect time, why isn't it taken care of in the movie? This is one of those convenient Trek plot lines.
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  #93  
Old 04-25-2009, 09:18 PM
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Whenever a Trek series does time travel, and it affects their current timeline, they go back and fix it. Or if they are already back in time, they try not to disrupt the past.

If Spock and the Narada's time travel does affect time, why isn't it taken care of in the movie? This is one of those convenient Trek plot lines.
Because the Nero creates a new timeline which is now separate from the original.

Even if they were able to jump back to the original timeline there would be nothing to repair, the original continues on as before without Nero and Spock, whom have simply disappeared.
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Old 04-25-2009, 09:28 PM
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But that's what happens in Trek with time travel...a new timeline is started when they travel back, but is repaired once the episode/movie ends...

So why isn't this one repaired? If we follow conventional Trek thinking, when the Narada & Spock travel back in time, time is changed But how come time isn't restored?

I call it Trek convenience....
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  #95  
Old 04-25-2009, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Damage75 View Post
But that's what happens in Trek with time travel...a new timeline is started when they travel back, but is repaired once the episode/movie ends...

So why isn't this one repaired? If we follow conventional Trek thinking, when the Narada & Spock travel back in time, time is changed But how come time isn't restored?

I call it Trek convenience....
Or... perhaps this is unconventional Trek thinking?

OT but I was watching an older CSI Miami and surprise surprise our new young Kirk was the killer.
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  #96  
Old 04-25-2009, 09:39 PM
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Or... perhaps this is unconventional Trek thinking? .
I think it is...and don't get me wrong, I like it!
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  #97  
Old 04-26-2009, 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Damage75 View Post
But that's what happens in Trek with time travel...a new timeline is started when they travel back, but is repaired once the episode/movie ends...

So why isn't this one repaired? If we follow conventional Trek thinking, when the Narada & Spock travel back in time, time is changed But how come time isn't restored?

I call it Trek convenience....
I think the writers are using a different type of time travel theory. In theirs, you can't fix or restore anything, but merely continue in the one you've just created.
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  #98  
Old 04-26-2009, 09:40 AM
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I think the writers are using a different type of time travel theory. In theirs, you can't fix or restore anything, but merely continue in the one you've just created.
That goes against the usual Star Trek plot and is a refreshing change just to see how its different. Its whole purpose for being is predicated that our heroes will always fix things. But the possibility that they dont is never explored because it would by its very nature unbalance the series. In some ways I think if done well during TNG (in a relatively small way) it would have been a writers dream and perhaps a unique situation never before explored in any other TV series. Call it an alternative universe if it bothers you (I wouldnt because the crew would be affected), the effect is the same. How about having seasons 6 and 7 work this way and the series finale fix things? Mix things up.

To do this you have to accept the possibility that the attempt to restore the past (a Picard line from some episode) fails. It also requires a leap of faith that the people behind the show could pull it off.
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  #99  
Old 04-26-2009, 10:03 AM
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I think the difficulties inherent in that are why Star Trek took the 'easy' option and always fixed the timeline after any interference had been done with it.

I think (if I follow it on a basic level) would be that time travel as previously shown is incorrect. If we follow their theory, then Star Trek has already shifted between many, many alternates and the Trekverse seen at the end of Nemesis was not actually the same one begun in 'The Cage'.

But Star Trek has treated time travel kind of on a case by case basis before. So I don't sweat it too much. If they make it too complex it doesn't work anyway. Better to keep it as straightforward as possible.
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