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  #21  
Old 12-03-2008, 08:07 PM
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Saquist Saquist is offline
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Originally Posted by The Saint View Post
Perhaps the lesson for Paramount was -- release increasingly badly-written movies, watch them do increasingly poorly at the box office. Don't forget that fans were growing increasingly weary of the showrunners by that point. Canon hardly figured into the films, since they were moving forward in time (within the overall Trek story) not backward. Look at the backlash Enterprise got, on the other hand, and then also figure that into the growing attitude of dismissiveness for Berman & Braga's reign as Trek's helmers.
Dude...I don't know why he didn't get that...
Its not canon that's the problem...
It's bad writing.

I can't believe you made a thread for this strawman. C'mon. We all know
this.


And Omegaman...You're wrong too. Not every movie other than those are poorly concieved....what's with the sweeping generalizations and blistering hyperboly on this thread
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  #22  
Old 12-03-2008, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Saint View Post
Perhaps the lesson for Paramount was -- release increasingly badly-written movies, watch them do increasingly poorly at the box office. Don't forget that fans were growing increasingly weary of the showrunners by that point. Canon hardly figured into the films, since they were moving forward in time (within the overall Trek story) not backward. Look at the backlash Enterprise got, on the other hand, and then also figure that into the growing attitude of dismissiveness for Berman & Braga's reign as Trek's helmers.
Exactly! THIS response is way more fact me thinks. They just couldn't re create the strong character bonds etc.. from Kirk's crew. TNG was fantastic TV but the movies were a waste of Patric Stewarts talent! I hope he was paid well.

Last edited by numberwun : 12-03-2008 at 08:30 PM.
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  #23  
Old 12-03-2008, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
Dude...I don't know why he didn't get that...
Its not canon that's the problem...
It's bad writing.

I can't believe you made a thread for this strawman. C'mon. We all know
this.


And Omegaman...You're wrong too. Not every movie other than those are poorly concieved....what's with the sweeping generalizations and blistering hyperboly on this thread
You're right. Sweeping generalizations and hyperboly are not just rampant on this thread, but all over these boards lately. And another thing, am I the only person who actually enjoyed Nemesis? I thought the special effects and the Enterprise (finally! I'm an old Starfleet Battles player.) ramming an enemy vessel was just as cool as hell! I didn't like the B4 ploy though. If Spiner wanted Data fragged, why didn't they just frag him without all that Data's less avanced twin nonsense. And yes, I bought the video too. It's not the worst Trek I've seen, and i actually thought it was fun to watch.
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  #24  
Old 12-04-2008, 12:38 AM
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Why did box office decline after First Contact? Insurrection as a lot to do with this. It made reasonable money but it was a very weak film and I am sure that after that film many people just did not hurry out to see Nemesis. Also Nemesis received so much bad press on the net, that even I did not rush to see it (although I did eventually see it in an empty (except for me) cinema before its run finished. Unlike all the films up to First Contact I didn't bother buying the tape or DVD. In part that is what angers me so much about Canonites like The Saint. They are being so negative about the new film they will put off people from going to see it! This time around that will be fatal for Trek. So even though at heart I would have preferred to see this film fit into the 'canon' in every way possible, I am not going to let the fact that it does not stop me from looking forward to it.
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  #25  
Old 12-04-2008, 03:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
Dude...I don't know why he didn't get that...
Its not canon that's the problem...
It's bad writing.

I can't believe you made a thread for this strawman. C'mon. We all know
this.


And Omegaman...You're wrong too. Not every movie other than those are poorly concieved....what's with the sweeping generalizations and blistering hyperboly on this thread
It's not a "strawman" at all. It's how Paramount sees Star Trek. It's the only way they CAN see it, seeing as how their function as a company is to make money for the shareholders.

Think about it: People who loved Nemesis may write glowing, god-has-returned reviews about it; people who hated it, completely trashed it with just as much vigor. How is Paramount supposed to know who's right? If there's three hundred different "NEMESIS WAS AWESOME!!!11!!1!one!" websites, what does that truly say about the film when the numbers indicate there were only three hundred people who saw the movie?

Remember: the same person who was responsible for First Contact, DS9, and all that "good Trek" was responsible for Nemesis and Enterprise. It makes far more sense, on the corporate level, to believe that after 16, 17 YEARS people had just gotten tired of Trek, than to think that the production team responsible for what many might argue is the best Trek film ever made could have fallen so far as to produce what is inarguably the worse Trek film ever made in only six years' time. Paramount does not think that "bad writing", all by itself, could be responsible for an over 90% drop in the profitability of making Star Trek movies...and in a way, I have a hard time believing it as well.

Are you familiar with the concept of "voting with your wallet"? Of course you are - it's the reason people are talking about "boycotting" this movie: expressing your displeasure with a project by trying to cut its profitability. It can, and does, work - but here's the thing: the mechanics behind its effectiveness are active ALL THE TIME, not just when you want them to be.

Over the last three movies, as far as Paramount is concerned, Trek's fan base has voted with their wallets. They've clearly, clearly voted against Trek the way you now contend it "should be". That's the message you sent, as a fan base, whether you intended it that way or not.
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  #26  
Old 12-04-2008, 03:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonsieurHood View Post
And another thing, am I the only person who actually enjoyed Nemesis? I thought the special effects and the Enterprise (finally! I'm an old Starfleet Battles player.) ramming an enemy vessel was just as cool as hell! I didn't like the B4 ploy though. If Spiner wanted Data fragged, why didn't they just frag him without all that Data's less avanced twin nonsense. And yes, I bought the video too. It's not the worst Trek I've seen, and i actually thought it was fun to watch.
Well, I think there is one other person here I've seen praise Nemesis, and I know at least one person on another board who liked it. So no, there are a few. But then, Undiscovered Country is my favorite Trek movie, and in another thread here somebody said that they felt it was so bad they could never watch it again. There's always a few people who swim against majority opinion and that's perfectly fine. Sadly, however, it's the actions of the majority that dictate corporate policy.
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  #27  
Old 12-04-2008, 03:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williamLX
In part that is what angers me so much about Canonites like The Saint. They are being so negative about the new film they will put off people from going to see it!
The way I see it, Nemesis justified all the criticism it got, and what was directed at the trailer, sadly, was predominantly true.

Quote:
This time around that will be fatal for Trek.
Oh, I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but I'll say it anyway:

Maybe this time it should be.

I hope Abrams didn't helm something as lackadaisical, apathetic and half-assed as Nemesis. But if it turns out he did... let it end.
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  #28  
Old 12-04-2008, 04:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Saint View Post
Maybe this time it should be.
I agree, should the film be that bad - things sometimes just do come to an end.

Mind you the fact that some of the films earlier than Nemesis were no great shakes didn't kill things either. The box-office will decide all.
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  #29  
Old 12-04-2008, 04:50 AM
TAReber TAReber is offline
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Originally Posted by LTJG Iferal View Post
Maybe that's why. The more money they spent trying to make you happy, the less you appreciated their effort. I suggest that you all had come to take Star Trek for granted. They kept releasing Picard movies and you eventually stopped caring. And now - NOW, something is "different", and suddenly you're all in a tizzy, and threatening to "boycott" the movie because it doesn't fit your perfect canon...well, what happened the last time they stuck to canon? Where were YOU in December '02? Fine, we know NOW that Nemesis was a horrible movie - but nobody knew that on opening day, so where was everybody? George Lucas released two epicly-crappy movies and people STILL lined up at midnight in all their robe-clad, plastic-sword-wielding geekdom when Episode III came out. Where was the representation for Star Trek? Say what you want, but the fact is, most of you were watching Lord of the Rings, or Harry-frickin-Potter. The numbers don't lie. Your threat to "boycott" simply doesn't have any teeth, because apparently you've been boycotting Trek in growing numbers for the last several years.
I do believe it were the The next generation movies that were different from what is normally considered star trek. Because of the drastic changes in this movie, I do believe we have every right to question it due to past experiences with change.

It very well could be a strawman fallacy, You have taken an event and irrelevant data to twist an argument in support of a weak conclusion.
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  #30  
Old 12-04-2008, 04:54 AM
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"Straw man" again? How many posts has that term been used in since the "logical fallacies" thing? Good grief, can we latch onto something different next week?
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