The Official Star Trek Movie Forum

The Official Star Trek Movie Forum > Star Trek > General Star Trek Discussions > TV Shows > Original Series > A Stardate for the Cage...
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-18-2008, 03:33 AM
timelike timelike is offline
Midshipman
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 12
Default A Stardate for the Cage...

Greetings all!

I would really like an estimate for a stardate for the Cage. Could anyone here give me a good guess?

Many thanks!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-18-2008, 01:26 PM
Commodore's Avatar
Commodore Commodore is offline
Rear Admiral
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Starbase 24
Posts: 2,511
Default

There was a long-standing theory that during TOS, each ship had its own stardate system and that it was based on the length of a particular mission.

But if I had to hazard a guess, then I probably would have placed "The Cage" around stardate 0123.4, with 10 units equal to a year. Pike's stardate system would pretty much have to be a different system than the one Kirk used, IMO.

Then it's always possible that Pike used the Gregorian calendar like Archer did in ENT and stardates were a new invention when Kirk became captain...
__________________
Free your mind, and the rest will follow.
--En Vogue
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-18-2008, 10:56 PM
MissionTrek08's Avatar
MissionTrek08 MissionTrek08 is offline
Fleet Admiral
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,562
Default

The short answer is there's no way of telling, since the Stardate system was so "fluid" and ill-definited in TOS when used. So many variables (including ones which had most cause in the writers' universe and not Starfleet's) changed the Stardate format that you might as well make up your own guess and call it as 'right' as anyone else's.

If it helps, according to the Okuda's Chronology (taken for what it's worth), here are the best clues they compiled:

No Stardate was given in The Cage.

The Menagerie, Part 1 in Pike's command is placed in the year 2252, based on Spock's definition of his years in service under Pike's command, and where the Okudas date Kirk starting his first five-year mission (2264).

Where No Man Has Gone Before does give its Stardate of 1312.4, and the Okudas place it in year 2265.

The Menagerie, Part 1 in "current" time under Kirk's command is supposed occuring in 2267, with the Stardate given as 3012.4

The problem with the theory of "ten units equal a year" is that both the above episodes happen in the first year of the series, yet the stardates differ substantially while little time has passed.

Worse, The Menagerie, Part 2 is given a stardate of 3013.1... yet how much time could have actually passed between it and Part 1 if they're 0.7 units of stardate apart?

Bascially, as far as TOS goes, Stardating is a giant mess and always will be. It's impossible even to get the actual Earth years to line up right, given highly vague crew biographies, inconsistent backstories and flat out contradictions of "fact" between episodes.

Good luck!
__________________

MISSION:TREK's in-depth review of STAR TREK


Proud member of the Friends of Zardoz Association. Avatar courtesy of Eliza's House of Avatars with three convenient locations near you. Free balloons for the kids!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-19-2008, 04:18 AM
timelike timelike is offline
Midshipman
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 12
Default

Cheers guys!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-19-2008, 05:07 AM
Commodore's Avatar
Commodore Commodore is offline
Rear Admiral
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Starbase 24
Posts: 2,511
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissionTrek08 View Post
If it helps, according to the Okuda's Chronology (taken for what it's worth), here are the best clues they compiled:

No Stardate was given in The Cage.

The Menagerie, Part 1 in Pike's command is placed in the year 2252, based on Spock's definition of his years in service under Pike's command, and where the Okudas date Kirk starting his first five-year mission (2264).

Where No Man Has Gone Before does give its Stardate of 1312.4, and the Okudas place it in year 2265.

The Menagerie, Part 1 in "current" time under Kirk's command is supposed occuring in 2267, with the Stardate given as 3012.4

The problem with the theory of "ten units equal a year" is that both the above episodes happen in the first year of the series, yet the stardates differ substantially while little time has passed.

Worse, The Menagerie, Part 2 is given a stardate of 3013.1... yet how much time could have actually passed between it and Part 1 if they're 0.7 units of stardate apart?
That's why I proposed that if there was a stardate system used during "The Cage," it would have to be based on a different system than the one used in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" and subsequent episodes because they otherwise don't match up.

At best, "The Cage" takes place a decade or so before "Where No Man Has Gone Before," so Kirk's system wouldn't fit unless you (A) use the idea that each ship has its own stardate system based on its particular mission or (B) establish that stardates were calculated a different way during Pike's tenure. TOS more or less followed a system of 100 units equalling a year, so 10 units a year during Pike's era was a way of having a stardate in "The Cage" lower than the one given in "Where No Man Has Gone Before."

Think of it this way--the stardate system in TOS is not the same one in TNG, so it's plausible that the system has been recalibrated and reset a few times since then. One probably took place just prior to Kirk taking command of the Enterprise.

Conversely, though, if one took the route that stardates were only mission-related and unique to each ship, both "The Cage" and "Where No Man Has Gone Before" could very well have had the same stardate as far as we know, even though they were set more than a decade apart.

There's no doubt that stardates are pretty much the earliest form of technobabble and was really developed just to make captain's logs sound futuristic, but you can still have fun playing with them nevertheless...
__________________
Free your mind, and the rest will follow.
--En Vogue
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-19-2008, 10:02 AM
MissionTrek08's Avatar
MissionTrek08 MissionTrek08 is offline
Fleet Admiral
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,562
Default

All true. The point I was adding was that the Stardate system wasn't even consistent in Jim Kirk's own five-year command, which as you say tends to skew it toward technobabble more than any reliable time logging system, even one for the same ship's 'tour of duty'.
__________________

MISSION:TREK's in-depth review of STAR TREK


Proud member of the Friends of Zardoz Association. Avatar courtesy of Eliza's House of Avatars with three convenient locations near you. Free balloons for the kids!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-19-2008, 10:40 AM
Commodore's Avatar
Commodore Commodore is offline
Rear Admiral
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Starbase 24
Posts: 2,511
Default

If you really wanna go farther with that, then there are a few instances in which stardates in later TOS episodes are lower than that of earlier ones. The most notable case is the second season episode, "Catspaw," which has an earlier stardate than the first season episode "Space Seed"...
__________________
Free your mind, and the rest will follow.
--En Vogue
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-19-2008, 04:29 PM
MissionTrek08's Avatar
MissionTrek08 MissionTrek08 is offline
Fleet Admiral
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,562
Default

Indeed. And no doubt the main reason why TNG revamped the Stardate system... because the writers realized that the system in TOS made no sense across three seasons.

Again, the artifact of writers/producers in 1966 never guessing fans would be examining their creation in minute detail on computers four decades later.
__________________

MISSION:TREK's in-depth review of STAR TREK


Proud member of the Friends of Zardoz Association. Avatar courtesy of Eliza's House of Avatars with three convenient locations near you. Free balloons for the kids!
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:05 AM.


Forum theme courtesy of Mark Lambert
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2009 by Paramount Pictures. STAR TREK and all related
marks and logos are trademarks of CBS Studios Inc. All Rights Reserved.