[captian beckett]

who thinks the defiant is one of the best classes of ship

[Saquist]

Untill the refit Dadelus and Odessy hit Star Gate Atlantis now ship in Sci Fi destroyed ships faster than the Defiant.

It's some 10x more powerful than the Galaxy, highly manuverable well equiped and specificly designed to kill ships in record time. There is frankly no better combat vessel in Trek.

In fact I would put a Defiant class starship to win against just about any ship except a Voth Mother ship and a Borg Cube. It will go against Scimitar, The Dominion Ship-Killer, the Regents 4,000 meter Negh'var.

I admite I wasn't initially a fan of the design. It was a rapid depature from the Star Fleet norm but I had to start to reconsider after The Search Part one were this ship fire 6 volleys in 2 seconds missing three times and destroying the attack ship in three volleys. Nothing short of incredible can describe that preformance and ever since I've stayed glued to the screen anytime Defiant went into battle.

After looking over the model I appreciated Defiant in a whole new way. It had all the standard equipment, and including landing gear and three shuttle bays and a massive impulse engine. The features of the ship included the new sensor pallettes that would be later put on Voyager. It lacks some features but for this completely encapsulated warship it's forgivable.


All Hail Defiant.

[williamLX]

Originally Posted by Saquist

It's some 10x more powerful than the Galaxy, highly manuverable well equiped and specificly designed to kill ships in record time. There is frankly no better combat vessel in Trek.

In fact I would put a Defiant class starship to win against just about any ship except a Voth Mother ship and a Borg Cube. It will go against Scimitar, The Dominion Ship-Killer, the Regents 4,000 meter Negh'var.

That's why it got trashed in 5 seconds flat by the Borg Cube, which itself lasted for about 5 seconds against the Enterprise! Remember the poor Enterprise seemed to get weaker as each film went on, she didn't have her quantum Torps against the Remen ship in X or the lepers in IX.

[Saquist]

Originally Posted by williamLX

That's why it got trashed in 5 seconds flat by the Borg Cube, which itself lasted for about 5 seconds against the Enterprise! Remember the poor Enterprise seemed to get weaker as each film went on, she didn't have her quantum Torps against the Remen ship in X or the lepers in IX.

The Ivor System near Deep Space 5 is about 60 to 70 lighyears from Earth. 8 Days at warp 9.6

The Distance from the Romulan Neutral Zone to Earth according to the Star Trek Star Charts is 30-ish lightyears. 3.7 Days at warp 9.6


Enterprise had time to travel to the Neutral Zone listen to the Fleet engage the cube as it passed through Federation Territory and then return to Earth. That's 8 Days.

The Point is Defiant would have been Engaged with the Cube for at least 3 hours since Defiant can move at warp 9.5 when dumping it's phaser reservers into SIF. The distance from Earth to DS9 is 60 lightyears
Defaint would have engage the Cube a good 2-3 lightyears from Earth.

In other words a running fight.

[Livingston]

Originally Posted by Saquist

The Ivor System near Deep Space 5 is about 60 to 70 lighyears from Earth. 8 Days at warp 9.6

The Distance from the Romulan Neutral Zone to Earth according to the Star Trek Star Charts is 30-ish lightyears. 3.7 Days at warp 9.6


Enterprise had time to travel to the Neutral Zone listen to the Fleet engage the cube as it passed through Federation Territory and then return to Earth. That's 8 Days.

The Point is Defiant would have been Engaged with the Cube for at least 3 hours since Defiant can move at warp 9.5 when dumping it's phaser reservers into SIF. The distance from Earth to DS9 is 60 lightyears
Defaint would have engage the Cube a good 2-3 lightyears from Earth.

In other words a running fight.

That's amazing when you think about it, considering the closest visible star in the constellation Orion is about 243 lyrs away. Just shows how little an area of space Star Trek deals with.

On a side note I remember Carter in stargate once saying that there are only a few stars visible from earth that have planets with stargates, shows how different shows handle the vastness of the galaxy.

[Lady Q]

Originally Posted by Saquist

The Ivor System near Deep Space 5 is about 60 to 70 lighyears from Earth. 8 Days at warp 9.6

The Distance from the Romulan Neutral Zone to Earth according to the Star Trek Star Charts is 30-ish lightyears. 3.7 Days at warp 9.6


Enterprise had time to travel to the Neutral Zone listen to the Fleet engage the cube as it passed through Federation Territory and then return to Earth. That's 8 Days.

The Point is Defiant would have been Engaged with the Cube for at least 3 hours since Defiant can move at warp 9.5 when dumping it's phaser reservers into SIF. The distance from Earth to DS9 is 60 lightyears
Defaint would have engage the Cube a good 2-3 lightyears from Earth.

In other words a running fight.

An interesting idea...

But there was no indication in either DS9, or ST-FC that there had been a running battle with the Defiant. Seems they decided to make their stand where they did after the cubes broke though perimiter defeses (I assume Wolf 359?)

My big question is why Sisko was not COMMANDING the Defiant into a major battle with the Borg. I like Worf, but seemed a odd choice.

[kevin]

Originally Posted by Lady Q

My big question is why Sisko was not COMMANDING the Defiant into a major battle with the Borg. I like Worf, but seemed a odd choice.

My personal thinking would be he was needed more as Commander of Deep Space Nine and that with the Dominion threat building up, there was no need for him to leave the station for several days to captain the ship when Worf has ample tactical experience and training.

Of course, if he had captained the ship, he's another character that would have had to have been fitted into FC, where he didn't really belong. So, had to be Worf.

[Big D]

Originally Posted by Lady Q

An interesting idea...

But there was no indication in either DS9, or ST-FC that there had been a running battle with the Defiant. Seems they decided to make their stand where they did after the cubes broke though perimiter defeses (I assume Wolf 359?)

My big question is why Sisko was not COMMANDING the Defiant into a major battle with the Borg. I like Worf, but seemed a odd choice.

When the Defiant first arrives at the fighting above Earth, you can see a vast, glowing hole in the armour over one of her nacelles. The ship's clearly taken one heck of a pounding, and in a vulnerable spot too, but has still managed to catch up with the enemy and rejoin the fight. As Riker says - "tough little ship". They definitely took a pounding from the Borg prior to what we actually see onscreen in the movie, and you can bet that they gave as good as they got. In an earlier draft of First Contact, the Borg invasion force was going to be a colossal tetrahedron, made up of a large number of cubes. The fleet, minus the Enterprise, were to destroy the tetrahedron, with a single cube separating and escaping toward Earth.

As for why Worf was in charge... I reckon Captain Sisko was kept out of it for the same reason that Picard was ordered away: a man with a painful history involving the Borg, more painful than most because he once lost his wife, his CO, and his ship to them. Like Picard, the bigwigs probably felt he might constitute an 'unstable element', given the risk of him being consumed by hatred, revenge, or fear during the fight.

That, and the plot required that they bring Worf back somehow

[williamLX]

Originally Posted by Saquist

Untill the refit Dadelus and Odessy hit Star Gate Atlantis now ship in Sci Fi destroyed ships faster than the Defiant.

It's some 10x more powerful than the Galaxy, highly manuverable well equiped and specificly designed to kill ships in record time. There is frankly no better combat vessel in Trek.

In fact I would put a Defiant class starship to win against just about any ship except a Voth Mother ship and a Borg Cube. It will go against Scimitar, The Dominion Ship-Killer, the Regents 4,000 meter Negh'var.

I admite I wasn't initially a fan of the design. It was a rapid depature from the Star Fleet norm but I had to start to reconsider after The Search Part one were this ship fire 6 volleys in 2 seconds missing three times and destroying the attack ship in three volleys. Nothing short of incredible can describe that preformance and ever since I've stayed glued to the screen anytime Defiant went into battle.

After looking over the model I appreciated Defiant in a whole new way. It had all the standard equipment, and including landing gear and three shuttle bays and a massive impulse engine. The features of the ship included the new sensor pallettes that would be later put on Voyager. It lacks some features but for this completely encapsulated warship it's forgivable.


All Hail Defiant.

This a long thread which I have not fully read so my point could well already have been made, but I feel I must point out how mistaken you are. It is not some 10x more powerful than a Galaxy Class. In the episode called in think 'Valiant' we see a sister ship of the defiant easily destroyed by a Dominian battleship which is described as being twice as big and 3x as powerful as a Galaxy Class Star Ship. If a Defiant Class ship was 10x more powerful than a Galaxy then the Valiant should have won the battle. I would see the Defiant as small and heavily armed for her size, but no match for full sized Star Ships. Her usefulness stems from the cloaking device for stealthy entry into Dominian held space.

[Saquist]

Originally Posted by Lady Q

An interesting idea...

But there was no indication in either DS9, or ST-FC that there had been a running battle with the Defiant. Seems they decided to make their stand where they did after the cubes broke though perimiter defeses (I assume Wolf 359?)

My big question is why Sisko was not COMMANDING the Defiant into a major battle with the Borg. I like Worf, but seemed a odd choice.

I understand your position on the information.
However I do not consider the amount of damage the Cube sustained was inflicted in a matter of minutes. It's direction toward Earth and it's distance means it never reached orbit. Considering the ease at which the Cube destroyed the pre Galaxy class starships (Akira, Steamrunner and Sabre) it would seem these vessels were last ditch defense.

Defiant was the only post Galaxy Class Starship on the scene before the Enterprise arrived.

Considering the Distance and forewarning they had from IVOR to Earth it would be logical that Star Fleet engaged the Cube long before it reached Earth.

*Note
Even in Best of Both Worlds we saw the Enterprise Engage the Cube the Fleet engage the Cube in an attempt to stop it's progress. It would seem only logical a similar trend occured for the second Borg Invasion.

Originally Posted by Livingston

That's amazing when you think about it, considering the closest visible star in the constellation Orion is about 243 lyrs away. Just shows how little an area of space Star Trek deals with.

On a side note I remember Carter in stargate once saying that there are only a few stars visible from earth that have planets with stargates, shows how different shows handle the vastness of the galaxy.

Correct.
Yet According to Canon Trek and not just the publications Warp is very very fast crossing even to the center of the Galaxy but we know there are many contradictions but from the TNG episode "Bloodlines" I was able to derive an actual speed of the Enterprise when we are given a distance and a time of arrival. It would seem that the Warp Speed Chart is true and that means Trek is dealing with a much small space than most would realize.

Originally Posted by williamLX

This a long thread which I have not fully read so my point could well already have been made, but I feel I must point out how mistaken you are. It is not some 10x more powerful than a Galaxy Class. In the episode called in think 'Valiant' we see a sister ship of the defiant easily destroyed by a Dominian battleship which is described as being twice as big and 3x as powerful as a Galaxy Class Star Ship. If a Defiant Class ship was 10x more powerful than a Galaxy then the Valiant should have won the battle. I would see the Defiant as small and heavily armed for her size, but no match for full sized Star Ships. Her usefulness stems from the cloaking device for stealthy entry into Dominian held space.

I must point out William, that using simple math and comparing the Odyssey's encounter with 3 Dominion Attack ships and the Defiant's encounter with 3 Dominon Attack ships...

It's quite clear that Defiant's 2 second kill compared to Odyssey's complete inability to destroy any of the attack ship places Defiant's strength many time over a Galaxy Class vessel. Odyssey was engaged in battle for at least five minutes.

Thus...
Anything that was said by the wet behind the ear Freshmen on board the Valiant is really quite suspect. Think about it. They were wrong about almost everything. They misguaged the strength of the vessel they were taking on. They were wrong to engage the target. They're direct approach on the Battlship was wrong. They're Intel of the Bracings were wrong.

As for the Valiant. It did not show equal fire power to the Defiant. Defiant destroys Attack ships in no more than three shots. Valiant needed repeated direct hits and Finally resorted to using Four Quantum Torpedos to finish off the Dominion vessel.

We also know that Valiant was damage and was limited to warp 4. The Defiant Class starship is a short range vessel and they were out in Deep Space cut off from resupply for months not to mention having used a majority of it's fuel on a previous and obviously draining pitch battle for and extened period of time.

It's likely Valiant simply didn't have the power it should have had. There is no way to know for sure. The writers leave blinding wholes in the plot devices. But logically it appear other Defiant class ships are just weaker on some order than the original ship.