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Old 05-31-2013, 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain View Post
I agree and think that Admiral Marcus would keep the only bargaining chip he has with Khan under very tight lock and key. If it were me, I would have transport inhibitors, guards, security out the ying-yang, etc. I would also be doing a visual count of those tubes daily if not more frequently to make sure they aren't wondering off.
Hence he got caught, yes?

Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain View Post
Much more likely but I don't see how Khan would think that moving 72 cryo tubes from a highly secure location in to torpedoes would not get him caught?
It doesn't sound like he had much of a choice. He was tasked with making weapons. He made that into a ploy to effect his escape and the freedom of his people.

Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain View Post
Sorry but you're making excuses for lazy writing here. Khan's motive is important and it could have been explained with out slowing down the story. Khan's initial plan to smuggle his crew out in those torpedoes is pretty stupid if you ask me. After going through this discussion with you I think it would have made more sense had Admiral Marcus been the one to put Khan's crew into those torpedoes with out Khan's knowledge as a way to get rid of them. Then have Khan find out about Admiral Marcus' plan and the rest of the film could have played out as it did.
No. Harrison saying "I assumed" AND not showing us what happened would be lazy writing.

Harrison saying "I had every reason to think" and leaving it up to the viewers to fill in that small blank is not lazy. Because we are not merely given that line, we are given Benedict Cumberbatch's very good acting to show that this man really did have every reason to think that the only people in the world that he held in any regard were all dead.

What would have been really clunky would be having a flashback with Admiral Marcus drawling about how he is going to "test" these torpedoes on some dead moon somewhere. If you put it before the "reveal" of Khan then we are given no reason to connect with his grief over the loss of these inanimate objects.

If you put it after that then it has to be before Marcus turns up in the "Vengeance". And up until Marcus turns up in his ship that screams "This guy is evil", you aren't actually meant to be quite sure how honest Harrison is being.


With your other theory:

Why does Marcus want to get rid of Harrison's people?

Is it because Harrison blew up the "archive"?

Why would Harrison blow up the archive if he thought his people were still alive?

Why would Marcus make Harrison think his people were dead if he hadn't tried to free them?

How would you communicate to the audience Harrison's attempt to smuggle his people away that fits into the plot? (Harrison is made to design weapons - Harrison tricks Marcus and secretly uses this as an opportunity to free his people - Spock tricks Harrison and exploits the fact that they were supposed to be torpedoes to disable the "Vengeance". That sort of thing.)

Why would Marcus put them in torpedoes if they weren't already in them? (There are easier ways to get rid of a room full of cryo tubes if you don't need them to go anywhere. He only gave the torpedoes to Kirk because Harrison had already put them there and since they couldn't be scanned then no more people had to know what was really in them. If he decided to put them in the torpedoes in response to Harrison blowing up the archives he could simply have blown up wherever the cryo tubes had been and claimed it was a second attack by Harrison.)

How would you communicate to the audience that Harrison knows or finds out about Marcus putting his people in the torpedoes?

If Khan knew that his people were in the torpedoes because Marcus put them there, how do you communicate Marcus' reasoning behind putting them in torpedoes? He was in charge of Section 31. He has no reason to smuggle them in such a convoluted fashion. Harrison did it that way because he was simply using the resources he had available. (Weapons.) Marcus has the whole of Section 31 and most of Starfleet at his disposal. If they weren't already in torpedo casings with a young, hot-headed starship commander ready to go take revenge on a terrorist-guy in Klingon territory he needn't have bothered disposing them in such a complicated ploy.

Marcus is a stupid man. That was established. (First he trusts Harrison to help him without being clever enough to escape, then he trusts Kirk not to listen to his Vulcan first officer.) He was paranoid bordering on the delusional so using the situation to his advantage in a risky fashion was in-character for him. Arbitrarily deciding to place cryo-tubes in torpedo casings is not.

Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain View Post
That's an assumption and never clearly stated. Kirk assumed when the torpedoes went off on the Vengeance that Spock just killed the 72 people in those torpedoes. If the only way to set them off was to replace the cyro tubes with warheads why did Kirk make that assumption?
It is an assumption. There are two possibilities: The propulsion fuel was detonated, or they put warheads in them.

The warheads would have to be really small to fit in there alongside the cryo tubes. And if the warheads for those torpedoes were really small, why would anyone approve a design that includes seven feet of completely empty space? Unless that space is where the warhead is meant to go. [Or the torpedoes are bigger on the inside.]

Kirk had just been attacked by Harrison and beamed across from the other ship, with no knowledge of Spock's plan. What is he going to do, work out immediately what Spock did or prompt another character to reveal to the audience what the plan was?
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