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Old 04-12-2011, 08:58 AM
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kevin kevin is offline
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Originally Posted by horatio View Post
Of course they have strong emotions, suppress them and thus fool themselves, that's not the point.
We rather disagree on whether stopping to behave like this would do any good for them.

I basically side with TFF and Fusion, i.e. that whoever tries to become more open and relaxed with his emotions has to fail, whereas you side more with TUC, Unification and ST09, i.e. that the late Spock shows that it does work. Of course all arguments are valid, I merely want to point out that the idea that the Vulcans would leave behind an oppressive system and choose a more free one is problematic. The guy from Fusion fell into a void, there was nothing so he became primordially violent, whereas Sybok filled the gap with the search for paradise.

So when Vulcans free themselves from their bonds they need another God, in Sybok's case even literally, or they regress into uncivilized, again meant to be taken literally, being out of civilization, brutes.
Yep, that's because shifting their structures would lead to some destabilisation in the interim......................because Vulcans don't have as well developed mechanisms for dealing with their emotions.

Using the teen love vs older love analogy............yes, young people fall in 'love' all the time especially as kids. Because they don't have the systems to deal with and understand the emotion of love and the different kinds of it there are. They can't, because they haven't experienced enough varieties of love to start understanding and dealing with it on an emotional level.

(I would often point anyone at this point to the dual versions of Joni Mitchell's 'Both Sides Now', the one she recorded as a young woman and the one she recorded as an older woman with life of later experiences under her belt for a semblance of what I mean).

Vulcan society is similar, 2000 years after Surak, Vulcans don't have the mechanisms that humans (who kept their emotions) do to process and cope with them, so they have difficulty handling them if they decide to try and not do what orthodoxy says they must. The emotions are still there............but highly suppressed instead until Kolinahr takes place. But they are still there and (at times) in some Vulcans resurface. Then the fun begins sometimes.

Prime Spock took a lifetime to balance his two sides out until he was more human than Vulcan really, so I'm not suggesting that it would ever be easy for Vulcan society to wouldn't............and maybe they shouldn't anyway if for the majority it works for them.

But there are always exceptions - good and bad.

Perhaps I should apply for a job in the Vulcan propaganda, eh, information ministry.
What do they pay? Do they have Pon Farr Hazard bonuses?

Originally Posted by samwiseb View Post
You know, I think we might actually get something like that. If not with this movie, then perhaps the next one.

Let's start with a couple basic assumptions about the current movie franchise:

-First, that the most commonly-familiar aspects of ST (particularly TOS) are going to get pushed to the forefront. Last movie, the Orion Slave Girl decided to leave her job and make an honest living going to college (er... the academy), seemingly just so the movie could show her making out with Kirk. After all, 'everyone' knows Kirk had a green woman in the original series.

-And second, that movies in general are about character arcs and Life-Changing Events. Generally speaking, if your script doesn't have these ingredients, then you don't have a movie. ST films of the past have been largely 'exempt' from this rule, on the concession that every movie can't seem like a Life-Changing Event for the characters after 79 episodes of television had already passed (and many critics were probably all too happy to lower expectations anyway). However, since ST is now 'primarily' a movie franchise, the conventional rules of drama would seem to apply.

The first film had the ST crew (particularly Kirk and Spock) coming together and learning to function as a team. It is therefore not unreasonable to assume that the films from here on out will involve problems -both personal and cosmic- that test the integrity of the ST 'family' by threatening to pull it back apart.

In keeping with assumption #1, we already have a "one of the above" list of characters who will 'likely' appear in the next film. I believe they were Harry Mudd, the Gorn, Gary Mitchell and [I forget the fourth one. I'm thinking it was either Trelane or the Horta]. Whichever one it is, I'm thinking it will just be a very brief cameo. Otherwise they wouldn't have spilled it.

Meanwhile Kirk has dropped out of the Kirk/Uhura/Spock romantic triangle (unless he's more of an idiot than I give him credit for). And hopefully by the end of next movie we'll know whether Uhura (per ST09) or McCoy (per 'traditional' TOS) is the third member of the Trekkian triumvirate.

Now. 'Amok Time' is another one of those classic episodes that 'almost' everyone probably knows about to some degree. How long do you suppose the writers will resist bringing T'Pring into one of these movies? With the explanation that she was off-world at the time Vulcan went kaput?

In doing so, you achieve some obvious results that are nonetheless dramatically 'truthful' with ST characters and canon. You 'heat up' the Uhura/Spock triangle (don't look at me like that, I'm just making observations here). And you provide a 'passive' antagonist who can seduce/guilt-trip Spock into reconsidering his obligations to country vs the Enterprise/Starfleet (especially if he already takes a lot of flak from fellow Vulcans who have had to make greater personal sacrifices for Vulcan society in the wake of what happened).

And a storyline dealing with the aftermath of the Vulcan diaspora, and possibly a renegade faction of Vulcan causing problems for the Federation, would seem to provide JJ and company with the perfect excuse for working such personal elements into their story. Again, from a purely observational point of view.
That actually works for the most part as a potential story source. You'd need to have the renegade the A story (you run the risk of echoing Sybock but as long as the character doesn't become a biological relation of Spock it might work) and the Spock dilemma the B.

Originally Posted by Pauln6 View Post
....................although I'm rather partial to Harry being a 'legitimate' salvage operator who recovers a certain, seemingly derelict, ship in the closing credits...
See, everyone is different but for me that's where fanwank starts to rear it's head in a less than satisfying way................
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