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-   -   how many nonmember planets (http://www.startrekmovie.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9346)

JoeFromEarth 08-18-2009 09:00 PM

how many nonmember planets
 
are in Federation space?

there has to be plenty, as there probably many non-warp civilizations.

also, are there any non federation territories completely enveloped by the federation?

FanWriter45 08-19-2009 05:48 AM

As many as the writers deem appropriate for the story they are telling.

horatio 08-19-2009 09:45 AM

That's an interesting question. Pre-warp civilisations are left alone, but how many space-faring species in Federation space choose not to join the UFP? This might be an interesting theme for a new Trek series, even when it bears some resemblance to the Maquis arc in DS9.

Commodore 08-19-2009 10:03 AM

VOY and ENT art designer Geoffrey Mandel postulated in his Star Trek: Star Charts atlas that there are over 7100 planets that are affiliated with the Federation but aren't exactly members (due to their location among the 150+ actual member planets, however, they still fall under the protection of Starfleet). Among these non-member worlds, however, are also various colonies and uninhabitable worlds that don't have actual member world status but are geographically within the Federation...

Botany Bay 08-19-2009 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeFromEarth (Post 249204)
are in Federation space?

there has to be plenty, as there probably many non-warp civilizations.

also, are there any non federation territories completely enveloped by the federation?

Clever question!

There is one thing I allways deemed strange, when it comes to Sci-Fi alike Star Trek (TV-Shows, Movies, Books, Computer Games, RPGs, etc.): Star empires are allways depicted like nation states with a cohesive astrographic space. Allways feels naive to me.

If we think about star empires, then we must envision something more alike the naval empire of the UK or colonial empires in general. Many points of interest scattered all over a star map.

For instance the whole idea of a neutral zone seperating star empires from eachother is rather funny, I think. I find it much more believable when we would see confusing chaotic star maps clustered with systems affiliated with the different empires and independent systems in between.

But then again, occasionally, Star Trek does feel alittle like this, when there are species and political powers you have never heard of before and never hear from again, who are not members or allies of the Federation: Gorns, Tholians, Sona and Baku, Orions, etc. On screen it doesnt feel as if these are far away from earth. Its just those folks who make those star maps, who feel the need to give us star empires with a cohesive territory.

kevin 08-19-2009 11:12 AM

It's probably not strictly naivete - just keeping it simple and clear for visual displays etc.

But it's a good question.

And what would happen if a planet 'within' Federation space reached warp flight and decided they didn't want to be associated or involved with the Federation.

Or a non-aligned planet within wanted to create it's own alliances with another non-aligned planet.

Galactic politics becomes messy very quickly!

JoeFromEarth 08-19-2009 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevin
And what would happen if a planet 'within' Federation space reached warp flight and decided they didn't want to be associated or involved with the Federation.

and what if they wanted to trade with someone the Federation isn't too friendly with, such as Romulans?

Commodore 08-19-2009 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeFromEarth (Post 249560)
Quote:

Originally Posted by kevin
And what would happen if a planet 'within' Federation space reached warp flight and decided they didn't want to be associated or involved with the Federation.
and what if they wanted to trade with someone the Federation isn't too friendly with, such as Romulans?

The thing about the Federation is that each member world still retains its original planetary government. That would likely also apply to non-member worlds that happen to fall within Federation territory as well. Such worlds would be allowed to conduct trade operations with other governments, but ships from recognized hostile states such as the Romulans would not be allowed to enter Federation space.

If a non-member world wanted to trade with the Romulans, they would have to go to Romulans themselves with the knowledge that their ships would likely be intercepted by Federation customs or Starfleet on their return. Sure, those non-Federation worlds could (and probably do) balk at the idea of having their ships continually stopped and searched for contraband, but that's the price they pay for transporting goods through Federation space.

kevin 08-20-2009 01:07 PM

But did those planets agree to be encircled by Federation space or did the Federation decide it for them? Perhaps because at the time they were not space-faring? Or First Contact had yet to be made?

If such a planet pops up - and it doesn't decide to join, then who decides upon the borders of it's space?

In that case there should be agreed 'neutral' trade routes that do not come under any one powers' auspices and allows planets to conduct their business without the automatic nosiness of another looking into every ship that comes and goes.

If a non-member world is trading with the Romulans it's essentially none of the Federation's business without justifiable grounds it's anything of danger to them and it's simply intereference in the affairs of a sovereign planet if they do inspect all shipping.

Unless the Federation does it to make life as difficult as possible for the non-member in the hope they take the easier option and join up.

Commodore 08-21-2009 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevin (Post 249781)
But did those planets agree to be encircled by Federation space or did the Federation decide it for them? Perhaps because at the time they were not space-faring? Or First Contact had yet to be made?

Probably yes to all of those.

The Federation probably has a standing policy of declaring the entire star system of a pre-warp civilization as being off-limits and likely establishes territorial treaties with warp-capable civilizations who choose not to join the Federation.
Quote:

If such a planet pops up - and it doesn't decide to join, then who decides upon the borders of it's space?
That's probably where Federation ambassadors come in to work with that planet's government to hammer out where it's borders end and the Federation's begin.
Quote:

In that case there should be agreed 'neutral' trade routes that do not come under any one powers' auspices and allows planets to conduct their business without the automatic nosiness of another looking into every ship that comes and goes.
The only problem with that idea is that the Federation is rather big and steadily expanding. Those neutral trade routes wouldn't remain neutral for very long, IMO, and I don't really know too many nations that would allow routes within their territory that wasn't theirs.

But the Federation does seem to have an "open door" policy in regards to trade, except with those nations that it recognizes as being an enemy (such as the Romulans, for example). In that case, the Federation would have the right to prohibit its enemies from passing through their space.
Quote:

If a non-member world is trading with the Romulans it's essentially none of the Federation's business without justifiable grounds it's anything of danger to them and it's simply intereference in the affairs of a sovereign planet if they do inspect all shipping.
I think that would work as long as the Romulans weren't traveling though Federation space (or were using intermediaries like the Ferengi or the Orions), but I think the Federation would indeed have the right to stop a ship coming from a recognized enemy passing through their territory. It would simply be a case of national security on the Federation's behalf. In such a case, the non-member world wanting to do business with the Romulans would simply be out of luck, since any goods coming from the Romulans would be considered contraband if it was transported through Federation space.
Quote:

Unless the Federation does it to make life as difficult as possible for the non-member in the hope they take the easier option and join up.
I think there are many non-member worlds within Federation space and that the number of nations they can't trade with may only be limited to a very small number (probably only the Romulans and maybe the Breen, really)...


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