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-   -   TNG HD trailer!! (http://www.startrekmovie.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11311)

NCC-73515 09-28-2011 11:03 AM

TNG HD trailer!!
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=av35kFHdS50

omegaman 09-28-2011 01:44 PM

Well… we'd better start saving our pennies…

horatio 09-28-2011 02:08 PM

I am not paying one penny for this tiny difference:



In the case of TOS it made sense to remake the old effects and clear up the interference on the film. For TNG it does not as the costs are higher and the benefits are smaller.

Roysten 09-28-2011 02:19 PM

After spending around £250 for the TNG DVDs I doubt I'll be getting them, be cool to see if it was much different, but I don't think I could ever justify it.

omegaman 09-28-2011 05:49 PM

One thing I cannot stand in some of the old series is the grainy look. This is evident in the original releases of the Star Trek movies. When they rereleased the remastered versions I bought them all again simply because they looked much better and were easier on the eye, especially on the big screen TV…

chator 09-28-2011 05:59 PM

The Next Level? Three episodes only? Even the Fan Collectives had more than that. I can't say I'm looking forward to this release.

mmoore 09-29-2011 04:40 AM

Encounter at Farpoint? Really?

It wasn't that great the first time I saw it, 24 years ago.

Inner Light and Sins of the Father are good choices. Best of Both Worlds would have been a better choice than Farpoint.

samwiseb 09-29-2011 08:08 AM

I'm all for this. The BD season boxsets, at least.

I'd probably get the first two seasons at 'preorder' price just to try to make this worth CBS's while. Then seasons 3-4, which are the real deal for me, I'll probably hold back until they're on sale for half-off (what I've done with every TNG/DS9/TOS set I've bought in the past). I won't weep if seasons 5-7 never get finished because not enough people bought 3-4.

Two things excite me about this project:

First, they're doing it with BluRay at the forefront of their plans, and 'streaming' as an afterthought. That's the way it should be, and it's (frankly) a promising sign the longer it stays that way. Call me petty, but I really dislike all the doomsayer "Your BluRays are already obsolete, sucka" talk, and so soon after the BD/HD-DVD format wars at that. I don't want the 'streamers' to win just yet. Fight the future for as long as possible.

Second (and perhaps more important), they're recompositing the special effects instead of redoing them. This for me is a major plus, and it's refreshing to finally know that the way the show was filmed/edited still leaves this as an option. I expect new CG will still be necessary for optical effects (weapons fire, etc). But any 'full' CG shots would look as cheap here as they did for TOS-R, so I'd glad they don't have to go that route.

I've always disliked the sort of dull, soft-focus look of the TNG-verse series, and rather hoped that much of it was due to post-production processes of the time. I'm hopeful that rescanning the film to HD will sharpen those images somewhat, particularly the actors' faces. Whatever the results, should be interesting to see.

jla1987 09-29-2011 09:04 AM

I might get it. I'm all for seeing the cheesiness of season 1 in HD!

Enterprise Captain 09-29-2011 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by horatio (Post 318469)
I am not paying one penny for this tiny difference:



In the case of TOS it made sense to remake the old effects and clear up the interference on the film. For TNG it does not as the costs are higher and the benefits are smaller.

At first I said, I wouldn't buy this set unless they do like TOS and include new special effects along with the old ones. Though seeing the comparison shoots now I am intrigued and may reconsider. Maybe it's my 20/20 vision but the difference in clarity is pretty big.

samwiseb 09-29-2011 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain (Post 318495)
At first I said, I wouldn't buy this set unless they do like TOS and include new special effects along with the old ones. Though seeing the comparison shoots now I am intrigued and may reconsider. Maybe it's my 20/20 vision but the difference in clarity is pretty big.

I expect the re-compositing will result in finished shots that will appear 'as new' compared to their composited-in-video SD counterparts. They can stitch together the multiple passes digitally, so you don't sacrifice quality when you lay them on top of each other.

kevin 09-29-2011 10:02 AM

I'm not big on their choices of episodes (although I don't actually dislike 'Farpoint' that much) and yes from that brief (like highly brief) shot there is better clarity in that effects shot...

.....but I'm not convinced that I need this.

I would have to really properly see some episodes to get a feel. And even then, it's doubtful. Not at the full initial cost the Blu-ray's would likely be. They would have to be on a really good sale down the line for me to consider it all over again.

samwiseb 09-29-2011 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevin (Post 318498)
I'm not big on their choices of episodes (although I don't actually dislike 'Farpoint' that much) and yes from that brief (like highly brief) shot there is better clarity in that effects shot...

.....but I'm not convinced that I need this.

I would have to really properly see some episodes to get a feel. And even then, it's doubtful. Not at the full initial cost the Blu-ray's would likely be. They would have to be on a really good sale down the line for me to consider it all over again.

I imagine they eventually will be. I was able to order the TOS BDs for $40 each from Best Buy last year (granted, the cases came slightly cracked).

I just hope they get as far as S4 with this. If enough suckers like me buy seasons 1-2, that should do the trick. I don't want to get the sampler though, if S1 is pretty much a guaranteed thing by that point. For my money 'Farpoint' was one of the worst pilots ever made. Thank god the series was already contracted when they made it...

Enterprise Captain 09-29-2011 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevin (Post 318498)
I'm not big on their choices of episodes (although I don't actually dislike 'Farpoint' that much) and yes from that brief (like highly brief) shot there is better clarity in that effects shot...

.....but I'm not convinced that I need this.

I would have to really properly see some episodes to get a feel. And even then, it's doubtful. Not at the full initial cost the Blu-ray's would likely be. They would have to be on a really good sale down the line for me to consider it all over again.

My guess is they picked "Encounter at Farpoint" because it has a lot of special effects shots in it and so people can compare the first episode to later episodes and see how good the images are through out the series. I'm also not a big fan of how Paramount always releases Star Trek with higher price points then every other show

Quote:

Originally Posted by samwiseb (Post 318502)
I just hope they get as far as S4 with this. If enough suckers like me buy seasons 1-2, that should do the trick. I don't want to get the sampler though, if S1 is pretty much a guaranteed thing by that point. For my money 'Farpoint' was one of the worst pilots ever made. Thank god the series was already contracted when they made it...

I would think that the whole series is being done. I doubt they would stop mid-series due to sales being low. Sales may affect the future blu-ray releases of DS9 and Voyager though. Does anyone know if the CGI in those shows were rendered in 1080p? I know that was an issue with the new special effects in TMP and the blu-ray release because those effects weren't

samwiseb 09-29-2011 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain (Post 318505)
My guess is they picked "Encounter at Farpoint" because it has a lot of special effects shots in it and so people can compare the first episode to later episodes and see how good the images are through out the series. I'm also not a big fan of how Paramount always releases Star Trek with higher price points then every other show

I would think that the whole series is being done. I doubt they would stop mid-series due to sales being low. Sales may affect the future blu-ray releases of DS9 and Voyager though. Does anyone know if the CGI in those shows were rendered in 1080p? I know that was an issue with the new special effects in TMP and the blu-ray release because those effects weren't

I don't imagine anyone is a huge fan of their pricing. But CBS wants these BluRays to sell, and the market keeps changing thanks to all this 'streaming' crap; I'm sort of hoping that these will be better priced. Though that may be unrealistic.

To my knowledge, no foresight regarding HD was factored into production prior to ENT. Although I think DS9 continued using models throughout most of its run. I'll confess I was quite surprised to hear they had switched to CG, as back then I just assumed that all TV-budgeted CGI would look like Babylon 5. And I still cannot tell quite when they switched over.

Had TNG-R had its effects overhauled by CBS Digital (and I'm very thankful to hear that won't be the case), I'm sure the CG models would have stuck out like a sore thumb.

Enterprise Captain 09-30-2011 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samwiseb (Post 318507)
I don't imagine anyone is a huge fan of their pricing. But CBS wants these BluRays to sell, and the market keeps changing thanks to all this 'streaming' crap; I'm sort of hoping that these will be better priced. Though that may be unrealistic.

I hope so too. The TOS Remastered season sets were cheaper then the TOS DVD season sets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by samwiseb (Post 318507)
To my knowledge, no foresight regarding HD was factored into production prior to ENT. Although I think DS9 continued using models throughout most of its run. I'll confess I was quite surprised to hear they had switched to CG, as back then I just assumed that all TV-budgeted CGI would look like Babylon 5. And I still cannot tell quite when they switched over.

Did some reading and apparently the Defiant was all CGI though the station was a model until the very last shoot of the series. I guess they would have to redo all the Defiant shoots then to bring up to true 1080p.

Quote:

Originally Posted by samwiseb (Post 318507)
Had TNG-R had its effects overhauled by CBS Digital (and I'm very thankful to hear that won't be the case), I'm sure the CG models would have stuck out like a sore thumb.

This is a CGI shoot of the Enterprise-D from "These Are the Voyages":

She looks pretty good to me.

samwiseb 09-30-2011 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain (Post 318523)
This is a CGI shoot of the Enterprise-D from "These Are the Voyages":

She looks pretty good to me.

But that's not CBS Digital's work. And not what a TNG remastering project would look like, if they created all-new CG effects at a mere fraction of the time and money used to create effects for a first-run series.

horatio 09-30-2011 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain (Post 318495)
At first I said, I wouldn't buy this set unless they do like TOS and include new special effects along with the old ones. Though seeing the comparison shoots now I am intrigued and may reconsider. Maybe it's my 20/20 vision but the difference in clarity is pretty big.

I think that remastering TNG is great for the long-run, not at least because remastering implies that it is treated as classic, as something that is worth to get polished up and preserved.
But it is probably more expensive than remastering TOS, otherwise they wouldn't probe the market via having worked on and releasing merely three episodes.

chator 09-30-2011 11:20 AM

Here's another problem though, I want to watch TNG the way I remember it. Remastered is not the way I originally saw the series and though I'm not quite sure how I'd react to a remastered episode. Maybe favorably, maybe not. I went through this with the remastered Robotech cartoon. I bought the Dvds of the series when it was first released by ADV. Later a remastered version was released, I didn't like it, it was too cleaned up plus they changed the theme song and title intro and introduced new sound effects. Well, that killed it for me. A friend of mine couldn't get into TOS remastered because it wasn't the way he remembered watching the episodes as a kid and was buying the Dvds for the naustalgia factor.

Enterprise Captain 09-30-2011 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samwiseb (Post 318544)
But that's not CBS Digital's work. And not what a TNG remastering project would look like, if they created all-new CG effects at a mere fraction of the time and money used to create effects for a first-run series.

I wouldn't want anything less then that quality so a half a$$ed job off it wouldn't be worth it. I do like that they are putting in a lot of effort to restore the original effects in HD though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by horatio (Post 318545)
I think that remastering TNG is great for the long-run, not at least because remastering implies that it is treated as classic, as something that is worth to get polished up and preserved.
But it is probably more expensive than remastering TOS, otherwise they wouldn't probe the market via having worked on and releasing merely three episodes.

I'm sure just due to the number of episodes and if I'm correct they didn't have to re-edit the original series just transfer it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chator (Post 318546)
Here's another problem though, I want to watch TNG the way I remember it. Remastered is not the way I originally saw the series and though I'm not quite sure how I'd react to a remastered episode. Maybe favorably, maybe not. I went through this with the remastered Robotech cartoon. I bought the Dvds of the series when it was first released by ADV. Later a remastered version was released, I didn't like it, it was too cleaned up plus they changed the theme song and title intro and introduced new sound effects. Well, that killed it for me. A friend of mine couldn't get into TOS remastered because it wasn't the way he remembered watching the episodes as a kid and was buying the Dvds for the naustalgia factor.

That's why they include both the old and new special effects on the TOS blu-ray set, best of both worlds.

horatio 09-30-2011 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chator (Post 318546)
Here's another problem though, I want to watch TNG the way I remember it. Remastered is not the way I originally saw the series and though I'm not quite sure how I'd react to a remastered episode. Maybe favorably, maybe not. I went through this with the remastered Robotech cartoon. I bought the Dvds of the series when it was first released by ADV. Later a remastered version was released, I didn't like it, it was too cleaned up plus they changed the theme song and title intro and introduced new sound effects. Well, that killed it for me. A friend of mine couldn't get into TOS remastered because it wasn't the way he remembered watching the episodes as a kid and was buying the Dvds for the naustalgia factor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain (Post 318548)
I wouldn't want anything less then that quality so a half a$$ed job off it wouldn't be worth it. I do like that they are putting in a lot of effort to restore the original effects in HD though.

That's the dilemma of every remastering/remake. Some want it to be totally new, some want it to be virtually unchanged.
If the second version is meant to overwrite the first one I am for a conservative approach, even if it implies effects that are not state of the art. It worked well for TOS. Nothing worse than effects that stand out and are not in harmony with the rest of the material.

kevin 10-01-2011 12:19 AM

TOS-R was a great job done, I have to say I would never watch anything but it now because the work done was so careful and appropriately done.

If TNG-R isn't going down that route (which I agree would probably be too expensive to do quality CGI for 179 episodes that matched the quality of the original effects - which mostly are not THAT bad in TNG as it was healthily resourced in that department) but just going for HD image quality based on the original effects then it becomes more doubtful I would spend on it.

But, really I'd still need to see a group of episodes properly.

kevin 10-01-2011 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enterprise Captain (Post 318505)
I'm also not a big fan of how Paramount always releases Star Trek with higher price points then every other show

Yeah, I think they need to rethink the pricing - until recently even in the UK there remained a slight premium for Star Trek sets that I doubt can be justified anymore.

I see that starting to alter a bit in the UK, but not by a lot.

NCC-73515 12-04-2011 01:11 PM

They will not recreate CGI stuff from scratch, but they have the original FX footage :D
http://trekweb.com/stories.php?aid=4edbdee70b119

kevin 12-06-2011 10:48 AM

I like that they are using the original elements with digital recomposition and finishing, because much of the model work still isn't at all that bad.

But I can't help but also do a teensy bit of a switcheroo and take the opportunity to do some CGI alterations to some of the ship modelling scaling and get rid of the same 'Angel One' matte painting that was used as the same city about fifteen times over the run of TNG (or at least, it felt like it was used that often).

Not wholesale CGI the whole thing again, but just take the chance to do a little spring cleaning in areas that budgetary constraints meant they couldn't vary up as much the first time around.

Oh, and at least fix that idiotic blooper from 'Darmok'. For the love of anything that is precious................fix that! Even just insert a stock shot from another ep...................whatever.

samwiseb 12-11-2011 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevin (Post 320142)
Oh, and at least fix that idiotic blooper from 'Darmok'. For the love of anything that is precious................fix that! Even just insert a stock shot from another ep...................whatever.

Which blooper is this?

kevin 12-11-2011 12:22 PM

That was the episode where somehow, someone had a phaser strike come out the front dorsal torpedo launcher.

I'm not normally anal about that stuff, but it was such a clanger I would totally be fixing it if I was in charge of the work.

samwiseb 12-11-2011 09:20 PM

Seems like it would be easy enough to recomposite the phaser strike in such a way that its origin point is modified. Even if the perspective was 'off' as a result (which happened a lot of the time on TNG anyway), it's not like the shot would be on the screen for more than a couple seconds.

And that's assuming the paintbrush animation effects were ever even captured on film in the first place. They may have been applied strait to video and then composited in some way. At least with models, you can make the case of using film to get the lighting texture right. But it could be that animation effects such as phaser shots would need to be recreated entirely.

Was there any additional weapons fire exchanged during the shot? Or any reverse-angle shots of the alien ship immediately before or after? Those are the only issues I can think of in regards to simply replacing the shot as you suggest. As long as the 180 rule isn't violated (as TOS-R did a couple of times!), I don't see why not.

I've never been one to notice such details where spaceships are concerned. Even now, after all the hours I've of Trek I've watched, I doubt if I could tell you 'exactly' where the phaserbanks are, especially on the D. I know a couple of phaser/tordedo effects on TOS always 'looked wrong' for some reason ('The Corbomite Maneuver' seems a likely instance), and then during the remastering project it came out that mistakes like what you've cited had been the reason. Go figure.

kevin 12-11-2011 09:57 PM

Ah, my turn - what's the 180 rule?

samwiseb 12-12-2011 04:17 AM

It's among the first of your more rudimentary rules relating to the visual language of film.

Basically, if you have two objects interacting with each other (such as two actors in a conversation), you draw an imaginary line between them. In the case of two actors it's relatively easy because their line of sight would be the 180 degree line. Now your camera must choose either one side or the other for its vantage points. In a typical shot-reverse-shot sequence, you might have an over-the-shoulder vantage point behind each actor, but all your camera shots need to stay on that side of the line. Now as the scene progresses, hopefully your actors are moving around (either that or you have a really static scene), and you are constantly redrawing the line. The addition of still more actors walking into a scene results in more complicated spatial relationships, in which the positioning of the line may become more ambiguous or open to interpretation. And there are even numerous instances when you can 'supposedly' get away with crossing the line (though I couldn't tell you what those are, but as with everything else the most skilled directors are usually of the belief that rules are meant to be broken). With enough establishing shots, you can probably skip around the 180 degree line all you want. But do it incorrectly, and even the most untrained eye will recognize that 'something' is very wrong with the spacial continuity.

The rule also applies to moving objects. If your object is a car zooming past, then the road becomes your line. Break the movement into two shots (the car coming, the car going), and you still want to shoot from the same side of the road in both shots. Needless to say, the classic TOS main title sequences -with the Enterprise whizzing past- are a very obvious example of such shots. But whereas 'The Cage' frequently violates the 180 line during its opening/closing titles (and I don't recall whether this is still true with the remastered effects or not), the 1st and 2nd/3rd season TOS titles execute it properly (if pedestrianly).

(I'm not even sure how it was possible to break the line in the first place... wasn't the TOS Enterprise model supposed to be incomplete on one side? Maybe the film got flipped.)

With two starships facing off, the mutally-exchanged phaser fire (or the hypotetical trajectory thereof) makes up your line, so that a ship facing one way is seen from starboard and the other from port. This is unfortunately very elementary when it comes to traditional ST, as the creators seem virtually 'allergic' to imagining the possibility ships coming at each other from multiple plains or trajectories, resulting in some of the most choreographically unsophisticated 'horizon shot' face-offs space opera has to offer. Granted, the saucer-and-wing ships on ST probably don't lend themselves to being shot from very many angles... particularly in relation to each other. I often think it's because of ST that many other space operas (seemingly) go out of their way to avoid horizons and vanishing points in so many of their shots! But I suspect even with the 'cinema verite' documentary style of Galactica, that 180 lines had to be carefully established with each scene before they could be broken.

Um... sorry for this sounding like a lecture...

kevin 12-12-2011 08:49 AM

Not at all. I had just never heard it called the 180 rule before. Cheers.

kevin 12-22-2011 11:25 AM

I was having a root around Play.com and saw that the TNG HD sampler is also being released in Region 2 for the Princely sum of only £7.99.

*sigh*

I expect for the price of a Starbucks sacrifice for the week I'll end up getting it to get a better idea what the REAL results of this work look like through my Blu-ray player and HD TV.

samwiseb 01-07-2012 01:43 AM

Ya know ya want it suckas. [Side-by-side HD remaster/SD-DVD comparison footage]

(I got my copy preordered. Figure it will only set me back a couple shrimp burritos).

kevin 01-10-2012 11:12 AM

Bonus!

I was checking out some upcoming titles on my LoveFilm subscription and they will be stocking the Blu-ray sampler to rent. So I'm just gonna do that instead of buy it, since if I did decide I liked it and wanted to repurchase TNG itself on Blu-ray, it would just become a dust gatherer anyway.

That said, I may then still wait until the inevitable 'complete' Blu-ray box set in a couple years time. Which - knowing Paramount - won't be released until after all the individual season sets have. That would give me a while to afford the no doubt ludicrous potential cost of the thing.

samwiseb 01-11-2012 03:58 AM

It would be nice if home video was still in demand by then. Do we even have a 'complete' TOS BluRay set yet? I stopped paying attention after I bought the season sets. I think they should have a complete TOS set with the eps all in production order.

I won't lose any sleep if they never get to TNG seasons 6-7 because nobody was buying them. Just give me 1-4 in HD and I'll be happy.

kevin 01-11-2012 08:05 AM

As far as I know in region 2 there is a complete TOS Blu ray set that sells for about 115 quid. The one with non remastered versions also available. But I dont know if the episodes are in production order or not.

I only have the R2 individual season sets of TOS-R which are in aired order. That in and of itself annoyed me a bit as well since the final VHS versions of TOS were released in production order on video. So I never knew why they couldnt go on the dvds in the same sequence. I still dont even know why 'The Cage' was included on the season 3 set and not the season 1.

Unless for the blatantly obvious one that it aired twenty years after the rest originally were broadcast.

samwiseb 01-11-2012 03:45 PM

I suppose you could argue much of the novelty of seeing 'The Menagerie' is lost if you've already seen 'The Cage'. That was my experience anyway. I had already seen 'The Cage' (restored version) broadcast in fall of '88 as part of a cynical commercial effort to assure viewers that TNG S2 was still coming eventually (it was the year of the writer's strike).

And yet 'The Menagerie' is part of the 'untouchable' classic TOS... if anything is going to get relegated as 'bonus material' it will be 'The Cage'. And 3rd season is the shortest in terms of hourly content.

However, technically 'The Cage' has been categorized as episode 1 ever since the VHS days, so a 'proper' full series set should have it up front. With Gene Roddenberry's 1986 intro explaining what it is you're watching.

Of course then it would have to be the black-and-white version, because Roddenberry just got through saying so. Only how many new fans would select that version? Most of them will watch the remastered version, which is on an alternate 'seamless branching' track with the restored version.

Might be easier to just keep it at the end, so nobody 'freaks out' and wonders just how many hours of TV they might have to sit through before Kirk shows up. Oh, but then wait a minute... why is the first ep numbered as '2'? We're already missing an episode. We'll be totally lost!

Maybe we just need to keep them scrambled, and just let the sets and wardrobe turn all 'wacko' for that one third ep. Sh*t... I think I've just rationalized why that will never change now.

Oh well...

samwiseb 01-18-2012 09:22 PM

Thedigitalbits has a review up. And here are more images as well.

kevin 01-19-2012 11:56 AM

Ah, so there has been some digital tweaking of planetscapes at least then? I'm assuming to render more detail into them (that's one area where some planetscapes in early TNG do tend to fall down a bit, probably even in comparison to the remastered TOS planetscapes now) and texturing?

samwiseb 01-19-2012 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevin (Post 320899)
Ah, so there has been some digital tweaking of planetscapes at least then? I'm assuming to render more detail into them (that's one area where some planetscapes in early TNG do tend to fall down a bit, probably even in comparison to the remastered TOS planetscapes now) and texturing?

"Digitally-enhanced planetscapes"... I guess that does imply fresh rendering. I had just assumed he was talking about digital recompositing. I wonder which is the case and to what degree the editor is in the know.

(Reading some of the old DVD reviews for TNG, one might get the impression early CG was already being utilized during production on a regular basis. And I'm not even completely sure myself if that wasn't the case)


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