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Admiral Rand 01-04-2010 09:55 PM

Warp Speed.
 
So the other day i was watching TOS The Changeling. In this and several other ep. They have talked about things going faster than warp ten. In this ep. They talk about a bolt of energy going warp 15. But in other series I.e. VOY. Tom Paris goes warp ten in a shuttle. And they all talk about how no one had gone that fast before. And that people couldn't go that fast because it made them sick and things. Put them everywhere at once and things. So my overall question is A. Is this just another time when trek universe doesn't sync up all that well? Or B did they change the warp scale after a time to make up for this?

vuedoc 01-04-2010 10:36 PM

Both.

There was a change in the warp scale between TOS (including the movies) and TNG, in order to allow for greater speeds to be reached. In the newer scale, maximum warp by any vessel is defined as 9.99... with warp 10 being defined as "infinite speed." In any case, warp 10+ in the old scale was probably the equivalent of 7 or 8 on the newer one. There is a formula used to calculate this but I don't have it at the moment. There are a few threads on this elsewhere.

I can deal with that, but what kind of annoyed me in TOS was where in some episodes such as "By Any Other Name" and "The Changeling" as you mentioned, is that sometimes warp speeds greater than 10 were attained with engine modifications only, but at other times, anything greeater than warp 9 caused iminent hull damage. I would have appreciated a little consistency there.

martok2112 01-04-2010 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vuedoc (Post 292603)
Both.

There was a change in the warp scale between TOS (including the movies) and TNG, in order to allow for greater speeds to be reached. In the newer scale, maximum warp by any vessel is defined as 9.99... with warp 10 being defined as "infinite speed." In any case, warp 10+ in the old scale was probably the equivalent of 7 or 8 on the newer one. There is a formula used to calculate this but I don't have it at the moment. There are a few threads on this elsewhere.

I can deal with that, but what kind of annoyed me in TOS was where in some episodes such as "By Any Other Name" and "The Changeling" as you mentioned, is that sometimes warp speeds greater than 10 were attained with engine modifications only, but at other times, anything greeater than warp 9 caused iminent hull damage. I would have appreciated a little consistency there.

And as you pointed out, the scales were changed between TOS and TNG. (Part of the "technology unchained" philosophy of TNG.)

According to the TNG Technical Manual, if a (next gen) ship were able to achieve a speed of warp 10, it would simultaneously occupy all points in the universe.

Then, they changed it up again in All Good Things when the Super Enterprise and Dr. (Capt.) Crusher's medical ship could apparently achieve warp 14-15.

Gaaaaahhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:svengo:

Commodore 01-05-2010 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vuedoc (Post 292603)
Both.

There was a change in the warp scale between TOS (including the movies) and TNG, in order to allow for greater speeds to be reached. In the newer scale, maximum warp by any vessel is defined as 9.99... with warp 10 being defined as "infinite speed." In any case, warp 10+ in the old scale was probably the equivalent of 7 or 8 on the newer one. There is a formula used to calculate this but I don't have it at the moment. There are a few threads on this elsewhere.

I can deal with that, but what kind of annoyed me in TOS was where in some episodes such as "By Any Other Name" and "The Changeling" as you mentioned, is that sometimes warp speeds greater than 10 were attained with engine modifications only, but at other times, anything greeater than warp 9 caused iminent hull damage. I would have appreciated a little consistency there.

Actually, there was a sort of consistency there. The Enterprise first traveled beyond Warp 9 in "The Changeling" and reached Warp 11 thanks to modifications made by the Nomad probe. When the ship was modified again by the Kelvans in "By Any Other Name" it was once again at Warp 11. It's feasible that both times these modifications were subsequently removed to be studied by Starfleet and the ship was returned to its original specifications (damn alien tampering!). But anything faster than Warp 9 was generally considered unsafe in TOS, IIRC...

kevin 01-05-2010 04:37 AM

Was the recalibration ever 'officially' mentioned in any script?

Suddenly occurred to me we all know about it but I can't recall any characters in any film or episode actually talking about the scales being changed from TOS times.

Am I wrong?

vuedoc 01-05-2010 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martok2112 (Post 292617)


Then, they changed it up again in All Good Things when the Super Enterprise and Dr. (Capt.) Crusher's medical ship could apparently achieve warp 14-15.

Gaaaaahhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:svengo:

Then again, that timeline never really happened :confused1:

The other point I made is that the "modifications" in those TOS episodes seemed to apply only to the engines, but it was implied in other episodes that greater speeds were "unsafe" due to loss of hull integrity, i.e to enable the ship to continuously travel at >warp 10 would have required structural redesign as well as engine modifications.

kevin 01-05-2010 09:09 AM

I remember reading though that with 'All Good Things' that the writers intentionally had some fun with previous Star Trek no-no's in their alternate because they knew it would be erased by the end of the episode.

Commodore 01-05-2010 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevin (Post 292639)
Was the recalibration ever 'officially' mentioned in any script?

Suddenly occurred to me we all know about it but I can't recall any characters in any film or episode actually talking about the scales being changed from TOS times.

Am I wrong?

Nope. It's one of those unspoken things in Trek (such as the Enterprise-E being a Sovereign-class starship). In fact, the only official thing we know about warp scales period is that each subsequent warp factor is presumably faster than the previous one and that "maximum warp" varies from ship to ship. Otherwise, both the TOS and TNG warp scales are totally non-canon and have been pretty much contradicted in every episode involving speeds and travel times to boot.

The only reason why it is presumed there was a recalibration in the warp scale was because of behind-the-scenes information and because the Enterprise-D would be otherwise slower than the original Enterprise.

martok2112 01-05-2010 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Commodore (Post 292860)
It's one of those unspoken things in Trek (such as the Enterprise-E being a Sovereign-class starship).

Isn't it amazing how rarely ship classes are actually referred to in Star Trek?

Constitution, Sovereign, Oberth, Miranda, Ambassador.... barely mentioned, or not mentioned at all.

Commodore 01-06-2010 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martok2112 (Post 292890)
Isn't it amazing how rarely ship classes are actually referred to in Star Trek?

A lot of that has to do with how rarely we see other Starfleet vessels in Trek. The irony is that the series in which we saw the most of Starfleet was the one in which featured an alien space station as it's primary focus.
Quote:

Constitution, Sovereign, Oberth, Miranda, Ambassador.... barely mentioned, or not mentioned at all.
Yeah, it took an early episode of TNG to make the term "Constitution-class" official. It was never spoken once in any TOS episode or movie (although it did finally appear in print in Star Trek VI).


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