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Quark 11-22-2009 12:38 AM

Dukat...
 
Do any of you think that Dukat has a good heart at all? Or is he someone who is just pure evil on the inside with a soft shell on the outside? I get sense of a little of both actually. There are times when I notice him to be very sarcastic and untrustworthy, and I'm glad that most of the people he talks to don't fall for his sarcastic undertone, but at the same time I'm in the dark. This is what makes Gul Dukat such a great villian. There is much mystery to him as opposed to someone like the Founder, Weyoun or Nero, who just want one thing and all act on what they want. With Dukat, I'm not sure wither to put him as an enemy or a neutral ground who truely wanted freedom for Cardassia but at the expence of everyone not getting credit but him.

I just saw "Heart of Glory" and I actually started to have sympathy for Dukat. Having the whole episode devoted to him was something that I felt was needed by far. He is still a mystery, but at least we get to see how his trueself is, or at least what we percieve it to be. And when he mentioned about how Cardassia was a dying people and that he was the only true Cardassian left to fight for it, I felt that there is something more to him. But in the end, there is no excuse for what he did during the Occupation. That was inexcusable and I'm glad that Kira will never forgive him for that, no matter how nice he is on the inside. The closest thing to Kira forgiving Dukat, was when she said, "Yes, too bad a lot of people had to die for his education [of realizing that what he did was wrong]." She is strong and won't fall for him. But, I think there is more to Dukat than meets the eye and we never really know about the true Dukat.

However, in the end he just turns to pure evil and there's nothing left to know about him, other than that he doesn't have a care in the world after his daughter was murdered.

kevin 11-22-2009 01:37 AM

I think that multi-dimensionality is what makes Dukat stand out amongst all Star Trek antagonists.

He was capable of what could be considered pure evil by others (but they were still acts he could rationalise himself as a true Cardassian working to keep her strong). He could try and be fair (with the Bajorans as he understood fair i.e the story related in Waltz, but then take cruel action when they acted against him). And he could also love his daughter without reserve, and lose his mind when he lost her.

Dukat is by far the greatest Star Trek TV antagonist ever created.

horatio 11-22-2009 01:58 AM

Dukat is evil, but not evil like in a comic-book world, evil like in the real world. People who commit horrible things might be seemingly nice fellows, they might have a family and genuinely love their children. And like Dukat, evil people try to rationalize their actions and delute themselves.
Just take a look at all the torturers of the previous administration, not the one in boots but the one in suits, the masterminds behind the agenda.

DUKAT: "Of course I hated them! I hated everything about them! Their superstitions and their cries for sympathy, their treachery and their lies, their smug superiority and their stiff-necked obstinacy, their earrings, and their broken, wrinkled noses!"
SISKO: "You should have killed them all, hm?"
DUKAT: "Yes! Yes!! That's right, isn't it?! I knew it. I've always known it. I should've killed every last one of them! I should've turned their planet into a graveyard the likes of which the galaxy had never seen! I should've killed them all."

Odradek 11-22-2009 02:12 AM

Unlike horatio I don't belive in pure evil humans, I see him as a mixed character.
I think Dukat is a Harras kind of character, or better that's what he would have liked to see himself as.
For those, who are unfamiliar with Harras I recommend "Des Teufels General"
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0047572/

horatio 11-22-2009 02:42 AM

Where did I say he is purely evil? Of course he has some good in him, the series showed that. But why should I care whether a colonial master loves his daughter or not, his crimes far outweigh his good deeds.

If there is a truely "mixed" Cardassian character it has to be plain and simple Garak. He might have very well done more ugly things than Dukat in his past, but he is not as self-centered as him, brought the Romulans into the war and helped to liberate Cardassia.

Odradek 11-22-2009 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by horatio (Post 283854)
Where did I say he is purely evil? Of course he has some good in him, the series showed that. But why should I care whether a colonial master loves his daughter or not, his crimes far outweigh his good deeds.

If there is a truely "mixed" Cardassian character it has to be plain and simple Garak. He might have very well done more ugly things than Dukat in his past, but he is not as self-centered as him, brought the Romulans into the war and helped to liberate Cardassia.

I think the difference between Dukat and Garak is:
Dukat would do nasty things, if they serve, what he belives is a greater good.
And Dukat would serve a greater good, only if it allowed him to do nasty things.

DevilEyes 11-22-2009 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quark (Post 283838)
Do any of you think that Dukat has a good heart at all? Or is he someone who is just pure evil on the inside with a soft shell on the outside? I get sense of a little of both actually. There are times when I notice him to be very sarcastic and untrustworthy, and I'm glad that most of the people he talks to don't fall for his sarcastic undertone, but at the same time I'm in the dark. This is what makes Gul Dukat such a great villian. There is much mystery to him as opposed to someone like the Founder, Weyoun or Nero, who just want one thing and all act on what they want. With Dukat, I'm not sure wither to put him as an enemy or a neutral ground who truely wanted freedom for Cardassia but at the expence of everyone not getting credit but him.

I just saw "Heart of Glory" and I actually started to have sympathy for Dukat. Having the whole episode devoted to him was something that I felt was needed by far. He is still a mystery, but at least we get to see how his trueself is, or at least what we percieve it to be. And when he mentioned about how Cardassia was a dying people and that he was the only true Cardassian left to fight for it, I felt that there is something more to him. But in the end, there is no excuse for what he did during the Occupation. That was inexcusable and I'm glad that Kira will never forgive him for that, no matter how nice he is on the inside. The closest thing to Kira forgiving Dukat, was when she said, "Yes, too bad a lot of people had to die for his education [of realizing that what he did was wrong]." She is strong and won't fall for him. But, I think there is more to Dukat than meets the eye and we never really know about the true Dukat.

However, in the end he just turns to pure evil and there's nothing left to know about him, other than that he doesn't have a care in the world after his daughter was murdered.

You mean "Return to Grace". Great episode.

Dukat was a great character and a great villain/antagonist exactly because he was complex and multi-faceted, as you observed. But unfortunately, Ira Steven Behr got upset by the character's popularity and decided to hammer it home that Dukat was the bad guy in case someone didn't get it, so he did his best to turn Dukat into a cartoon. As a result, we got the ridiculous red eye demonic possession storyline. :thumbdown:

chator 11-22-2009 07:19 AM

I see Dukat as mainly a political functionary. He lived on a planet ruled by a military dictatorship and so came to identify the Cardassian government as everything. I don't think he was pure evil, i'm not sure anyone is, except briefly. Remember he had an affair with a Bajoran woman, who gave birth to a mixed daughter, Tora Zial, that he then rescued and returned to Cardassia. So he had a heart for her. Then again, the Cardassian that tortured Picard also had a child he loved.

Quark 11-22-2009 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by horatio (Post 283845)
Just take a look at all the torturers of the previous administration, not the one in boots but the one in suits, the masterminds behind the agenda.

Yes! That is so true!

Big D 11-23-2009 01:19 AM

Dukat was admirably selfless and badass when he commandeered that Klingon fighter and led his one-ship war against the Klingon invaders. Of course, he was also a tyrannical monster in other situations, both before and after.

It's notable, however, that he adamantly objected to Weyoun's plan to exterminate Earth's population during the war.

While condemnable and contemptible, Dukat was a very strong and passionate person, and a well-written and developed character.


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